What He Said: Vroomen on Women's Cycling
by Jen See on Sep 2, 2010 12:52 PM EDT
in Women's Cycling
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Print"First of all, women's racing is really fun. And it's a matter of respect. If I had my way, the UCI [cycling's international governing body] would order Pro Tour teams to have women's teams, and order Pro Tour races to hold a women's race. Problem solved. It really could be done at little cost with a couple of tweaks."
What he said. If the UCI really cared about promoting the sport, they would make this happen. C'mon UCI, it's 2010, whaddya waiting for, hmm?
This Vroomen quote comes from an article by Bonnie Ford at ESPN about the Garmin-Cervélo merger and the future of the women's team. Certainly, you should go read the full article. So go on, go! Read it now!
Update: Be sure to scroll on down to the comments. There's a pretty excellent suggestion from Creeping Tortoise in there about how men's teams could support women's cycling relatively painlessly. Like!
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vroomEn
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
he talks
but also puts his money where his mouth is. good guy. glad he’s around.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
What a nonsense..
If the woman cycling can not survive without the support of the man event.. What is the point of the sport than afterall?!
just joking of course, but
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
on a serious note
if one day i’m lucky enough to have a daughter, i’d like for her to have role models in the world of cycling that she can discover on her own, rather than having her dad force feed them to her. i think it’s wrong to say that because women’s cycling could benefit from exposure brought about by association with men’s cycling that it can’t stand on its own. it has for years, just not in the limelight. increased exposure might allow it to stand in the limelight on its own some day. not to mention that more exposure = potentially more women cyclists = more money for the cycling industry = good for everyone.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
ja
This point about the importance of women’s pro sports for girls, I can’t over-state this one. I probably have a long post I could write on this one, but yes, it’s pretty huge.
I think there’s a good argument for hitching women’s racing to the men’s teams and the UCI in the short run, with a long-term goal of independence. The sport needs exposure, and the men have that. The men also have infrastructure – they have team managers who know how to run a team.
What rubbish is this.
Everyone knows the way forward for cycling is for them to hand out pictures for free.
pictures
Too many people think photos are worth something, when they are not. Since the age of digital cameras, the Interest is awash in photos, most of them of little value except entertainment for the masses. If you think you can make a lot of money selling photos, then go for it. The truth is there is very little money to be made selling them. Better to do it for fun and work at a real job with a solid check every week.
a thousand words? :)
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Not quite
Basta?
I think professional photographers can make a living out of it in the big tours for the men, and there are a number of them doing it, but women’s cycling is so weak that it can barely stand on it’s own feet the way it is. The idea of trying to sell photos and profit from it seems scurrilous and predatory in this climate. Many of the people who work in it from sponsors to those who put on these races for women including a lot of people who work those races do it as charity of their own personal free time. Same goes for many photographers who work in women’s cycling don’t try to profit from it but do it because they want to contribute to keep it at least marginally afloat. Many of those are also the ones who take the time to do a really good job in editing and presenting it to the public with the best face forward without crippling them with watermarks and copyrights. When I see women’s faces plastered with watermarks it’s degrading and hurts women’s cycling because no one will take it seriously. When the sport grows for women and gets back to a healthy robust level, then there might be a niche for that, but right now people should be trying to put the best face forward on it instead of just trying to push mediocre photos on the fans for profit. Quality, not quantity is the key. Yes, I question their motives.
by Sarah Bishop on Sep 2, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
PS I agree that in the age of cheap digital, "everyone" thinks they are Devich, Gibson, de Waal or Watson
the shear number of media creds that got handed to people with cameras at Tour Of Utah was mind blowing. Furthermore the number of them that all thought, "man if I could just get a moto…. "
Note that I am a photographer with a real job as well, cause with all those people pointing and shooting and giving their stuff away, very few outlets are paying much for quality.
Anyone who has every thought a working Photojournalist has a glam job needs to rethink...
by Christopher See on Sep 2, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
The pro women know us, and when we go to the races, they know us and that we are serious about putting the best face forward for them. Problem is, a lot of shade tree idiots with mom and pop P&S cameras get in the way, and sometimes I can’t get the shots the women want. Some of those people are trying to sell those photos cause I have talked with some of these fly by night artists. They have no interest in women’s cycling and don’t know a thing about women’s cycling, but they do have a keen interest in trying to profit from their crappy photos. Pathetic.
This has even happened at major stage races I have been to. I think they should rope off the podium and create a press area where qualified press is allowed to shoot, and that goes for pre race photos too. I too have never seen so many goons traipsing around in front of the women before the start line trying to take photos and the women almost never look at their lenses, but they look at ours and others who are working in their interest.
I think we should let the pro women decide who they want to shoot their sport, cause they know, believe me they know who is working in their best interest. The moto thing is funny. Yeah, I have seen that and it pisses off our race directors and promoters sometimes. These fly by night guys drop in and think they can just get in the way, and it pisses the women off. That’s why we don’t let third party motos work and pass the peloton anymore in the road races.
I have a friend in Europe that takes extremely nice photos. He’s got the Sony A900 with a bevy of lenses that cost five digits apiece, plus he is very good at post production work, many years of experience with cutting edge photography software, but he makes his money on the farm, big money. For him, he just shoots the women cause he wants to help out and his photos are pretty awesome online, without the watermarks. Great photos of respectable size deliver a sense of awe and wonder, and if you got a good quality LCD monitor, then it’s even more spectacular as a visual spectacle.
wait I'm supposed to be getting paid?
F&%$
Anyone who has every thought a working Photojournalist has a glam job needs to rethink...
by Christopher See on Sep 2, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't know how many times i was told basta as a kid
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
it's used less in the U.S.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Basta
I took it for short as Basta-rdo
I’ve never heard Basta used in the US before.
Good lip service
That’s good lip service, but wait and see. If more prominent people speak out at the higher levels then that’s a positive development. Problem is men run most things in cycling, so until women get a better foothold throughout the whole structure, they still need the support of men, if it helps. Someday women hopefully will lead the way in solving these problems. However, again the discussion on moving women’s cycling forward and the various issues holding it down are much too much for this comments section. I like the article cause it gets people talking and put others on notice.
Are there enough top level female cyclists to fill 18 teams?
I think requiring ProTour races to hold a women’s event is a fantastic idea. I don’t agree with the ProTour team idea though. No standalone women’s team would be able to exist.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
maybe not today
but with increased funding for the sport, i don’t see why there couldn’t some day.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Probably not right now
but that’s largely linked with the lack of paying jobs. When Brooke Miller explained why she was retiring it boiled down to the fact that because she thought that she was unlikely to be picked for the Olympic team it just wasn’t worth hanging around. As it is, if you’re not regularly scoring podiums in the first two or three years you are in the sport then there is no way that you can make it pay. The Thomas Lovkvist/Bernie Eisel type of rider who has a couple of their own races a season but spends the rest of the year fetching bottles or going for GT breakaways just doesn’t exist.
Olympics
It’s delusional to build your career around the Olympics, but if you are really good you don’t have to worry about it, since you’re likely to be choosen anyway. I think she made the right choice according to what she said, except I question retiring from cycling just because the Olympics didn’t pan out. Cycling is about cycling, and the Olympics is usually just one race that comes every 4 years, not something to base your entire cycling career on, IMO.
by Sarah Bishop on Sep 2, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Where would you rank Brooke in terms of US cyclists right now
Most would say that he top three are Mara Abbott, Evie Stevens and Shelley Evans, and probably in that order. After that it’s not so clear. Is Brooke 4th best right now? But if you aren’t going to earn a living from the sport then a gold medal looks like the next best thing. And if you can’t see yourself getting that then maybe you are better off getting out now, before your CV fills with even more years of what the average employer would call dossing around.
Brooke
USA pro women?
Yeah, those three would be first to come to mind. I think Evans will make the Olympics. What the article didn’t state is a little known terror named Shelly Olds came out of nowhere and really gave the sprinters the beat down. Heck, Brooke has never been remotely close to out sprinting Shelly that I am aware of. Shelly even comes within inches of taking out Ina Teutenberg. Brooke been unable to beat Teutenberg at the sprint finish, loses every time, although one year she came within inches. I think Brooke had hopes of getting in the final sprint of the Worlds or the Olympic road race, but she knows she would have to be much more durable to hold the pace of that race until the finish, let alone get in the final sprint. Like she said, that is a level or notch up on the training bar she is not willing to aspire too. Originally before Shelly came, Brooke had high hopes, and indeed Brooke was on top of the world for a couple of years and looked like she could become the best sprinter in the world. In fact, I’ll go a step further. Brooke was extremely strong when she was in tip-top condition and I believe she could have been the best sprinter in the world today. I bet if she were paid a professional wage, she would still be in the sport and on top of the world as a sprinter. Brooke was dam impressive when she was on her game. I have seen her race in person for years and years.
Is Brooke 4th, oh no, I don’t think so. I would have to think about that a bit and get back to you, but I have to run now.
Ciao, but Basta? I was thinking bastardo, but what is a female bastard in Italian?
Let me add...
Losing Brooke Miller is huge tragedy for women’s cycling. It should clearly be a big wake up call to the sport. Losing middle level and lower men happens all the time, as does with women, but the top men are paid millions and many hundreds of thousands to race. Losing the top women is a non-starter and not acceptable. When women’s cycling loses top women on a regular basis because mostly they are not even remotely paid a professional wage, then it should be in the press on a regular basis as a scandal, but it’s not. All we get is a regular feed of the druggies on the men side to overshadow it.
And to add insult to injury Brooke’s not hanging around but washing her hands completely of the sport. Other top women are going to look at that and say the same within a year or two. Women’s cycling can’t be taken seriously because they don’t even pay the top women enough to hang around either before or after their retirement in meaningful roles. Any women who hang around are doing it more like a charity, and aren’t paid much at all.
It’s a bad idea if you don’t have a rich uncle somewhere. Brooke Miller was once destined to be the worlds best sprinter and she was so close to pulling it off. What killed Brooke’s drive and determination to be the worlds best is the dismal state of women’s cycling. I blame the current state of the sport not Brooke. Sprinters like Brooke are pretty rare, and I am sad to see her go. I remember the first time I met her and Linda working out of a beat up van, but Brooke was so extremely happy back then. You would of thought she had five times as much natural dopamine as the normal person, but without being paid a professional wage year after year, it can kill the spirit of even the happiest person in the world.
USA riders... Brooke or Camen in 4th, IMO
Just getting time to check more on that. I wanted to take a closer look at Amber Neben but she’s had too many problems and is pretty low on the NRC although she raced in Europe some. If the NRC is any indication then yes, Brooke 4th, but I had Neben in mind without checking, I knew she crashed out of the Giro. USA Women’s scene is looking awful bleak. I surprised to see if Neben will last till the games, but the course is not suited to her, maybe the TT. Outside of the three you mentioned, the rest of our riders are nowhere near that level.
We lost Falvia, big loss right there. The rest of the girls are NRC riders mostly, although Kelly Benjamin went to Europe I believe to race a bit. She’s a sprinter. I know a lot of these NRC girls, and I can’t think of any great riders coming up. I know Cliff Ryan is a good sprinter and Matthis is world class but she’s retiring. Carman Smalls might be the best, if not Brooke. Carmen seems to do well racing in Europe, a bit better then Brooke perhaps. Crissy Ruiter retired, and she was decent on the world class scene. Dvorak might be ok if she stays in the sport, and Kat Carroll is pretty good but she didn’t go to Europe this year. Amber Rais is no longer a USA rider now, but UCI Austrian, so can’t count her, Amber is pretty decent. Alison Powers was decent on the World class scene but she didn’t go to Europe either this year. I betting she will retire.
by Sarah Bishop on Sep 4, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
So Brooke still had a good chance of getting into the team for 2012? Interesting
Carmen was in Europe in the first part of last year with Michela Fanini but it didn’t work out (Velonews had a really odd piece on that). She’s done a lot better going with the US national squad. Amber’s still good, but reaching that awkward age when you don’t bounce when you crash but break something instead. The big question is how will Coryn Rivera develop over teh next couple of years. She may have been ripping it up in the States, but she’s not found it quite so easy in Europe this summer.
Brooke, yes if she wanted it bad enough
Brooke probably found out that racing in Europe is more brutal then she thought and lots harder then the NRC crit circuit. She’s not willing to raise the bar. I don’t blame her. Raising the bar, spending that much time training and racing at that level isn’t worth it in the sense of the Olympics because its such a long shot. She’s not getting paid much to race and that’s why I think she might of stuck with it if she was getting a solid wage to race. A solid wage is very meaningful even if your Olympic dream doesn’t pan out. A solid wage would fester the kind of morale to take her to the games, IMO. Remember in her interview she said she’s going to strap a sign to her back saying “out of work, looking for a job!” Linda through Tibco doesn’t have that kind of cash, thus the problems with Women’s cycling are always about the money, show me the money? No money is a real morale killer.
My take on the Fanini thing is this since my friends are their friends and have been over his shop and house many times so I know a few things. Incidentally Fanini has a nice big framed photo of Zina on the wall, she was like a daughter to him. They do a lot of harmless socializing in the pre season to bond riders to the team, staff, management, etc. I believe she said in the interview that she didn’t like the atmosphere because she believed some of that stuff going on was inappropriate behavior. Well, I think it was mostly harmless horseplay, nothing real crazy. They like to have fun, cut up, and the Italians are famous for their fanfare, their fanclubs and celebrations. Heck, I got a lot of old videos from when Luperini won the Grand Tours during the 90’s and they used to get pretty wild in those videos, but all pretty fun harmless stuff. As an American, you might over react and decide you don’t like that stuff. I don’t know exactly what happened but I am guessing she didn’t like some of the horseplay.
Amber is sweet, I used to see her all the time for several years. She’s a lot of fun, good festive spirit. She’s a good rider, but she also has a real dream life now living in Austria, so she doesn’t need cycling anymore. If she really loves it, she will stick around for a few years on a UCI team, but I am betting she will retire within a year or two.
I forgot about Rivera. Yes, definitely Rivera would be in the top 5 now. She will be in the Olympics I think, maybe the Worlds. If she keeps getting better as a sprinter, not a stage racer though, but a Trackie and road warrior. That’s why I think the AIS model would be good for the USA. We could use such a model to find more Rivera’s out of high school. We don’t have high school bike clubs for cyclists like they do in New Zealand. I always wondered why so much talent came out of New Zealand, now I know.
by Sarah Bishop on Sep 4, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
That Velonews piece was strange
we’re getting our Amber’s crossed. I meant Neben, not Rais.
Neben and Rais
Yeah, remember Rais crashed also earlier this year and cracked his pelvis I believe. Neben will quit after the Games, IMO. However, if her back luck continues, maybe sooner! She’s also very nice, one of the nicest I have met in person.
I think there would be
although there would be a short-term lack of quality. Looking at Cervelo, for example, there are at least 4 riders who would be GC contenders if there were more teams – but it would add to the competition.
The way to do it would be incrementally – so as PT licenses were renewed – or in teh short-term, not make it mandatory, but eg if they had a women’s team, not having to pay so much, or (eg) ride all the PT races everywhere – you know, some incentivisation. What would happen in the short-term would be that men’s teams did deals with women’s teams Cervélo women’s team already existed) – and there are some nice fits already. The Spanish and French teams, for example, would struggle, but then the state of women’s road cycling over there definitely needs development.
One consequence would be that there wouldn’t be the number of national teams on the roads – but then again, the overlap between Team Sky and Team GB is already a bit iffy – and before he set up Sky, Brailsford ran Halfords, which was all about the Olympics…
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 3, 2010 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions
teams
Did you know there used to be at least 40 or more UCI women’s teams at one time, not so long ago? Women are leaving the sport in droves, but getting them back would not be a problem if more money was pumped into the sport.
42 Womens teams…
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2007/teams2007/teams2007.shtml
Lots of those are still around in some form
they’re just not UCI registered any more
I'm still not going to assume it's a good idea
Certainly not until I see a proper plan for it. There are, obviously, just a few Pro Tour(ish) team managers that are interested enough in women’s cycling to also have a female team. Given that the UCI is already tangled up with the teams, one can suspect that the teams are interested in influencing the decision, and that the UCI will listen to them (the boring term for this is regulatory capture). What comes out is not necessarily better than the existing. If we are going to base this on wishes for the future, then I want a Pinarello. And a pony.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
Why should they be mixed up with the UCI?
Where they’ll always be inferiors? They’d be better off setting up their own organization and engaging sponsor opportunities similar to the existing ones, which seem to be a more realistic financial commitment for companies with a management interest in women’s cycling. Part of the attraction of the feminine side of the sport is that it doesn’t involve the millions of dollars that separate fans from athletes in baseball, football, etc. She may not agree with that, but on the basis of recent past performance the opinion of Nicola Cranmer is more valuable than Vroomen’s.
Because the races are already in place
If they can run the womens race on the same course as the mens race, then it saves a lot in setup costs, permitting, etc. Plus you’ve already got fans coming to the races. Start the women’s race a couple hours ahead of the mens race and you provide more fan entertainment without significantly increasing the budget for holding the race. The way RVV is run seems to be a perfect model. Granted, I’m not a promoter and haven’t spent any time looking over race budgets, but it seems to be a good way to go.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
I'd like to see it happen for the big races on the calendar
monuments and the like, but it would be better for the sport to develop more of its own races than just be a sideshow for people who get to the race too early.
sideshow
It will be a sideshow if they run them at 8am. That’s often what happens to women, they get the crappy hour, while men get prime time. Run the women after the men, or run the women as late as possible so people have time to get out of bed, wheather if it’s on TV live or in their local city. Both our races are run no problem together during the most active hours, between 11am and 3pm for the pro men and women. I would like to hear some discussion on the Pro Tour idea for women from the UCI.
God save us from having women's cycling become a sideshow...
…like, say, women’s tennis. Oh! Anything but that!
by Ed K on Sep 3, 2010 5:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
or women's swimming
or women’s track & field
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
That blog is junk
baseless speculations galore and implying tennis players are full of dope because they have muscles(as the numerous pictures show). Not saying there isn’t some doping going on in tennis but maybe some true evidence would be nice instead of that crap.
"Until you shoot me off my bike I'll keep looking for a contract" - Jens!
Quitter's People United member # 42
I'm not sure it's a good idea to make people run teams if they have no real wish to do so.
I’d hope that the relative success of HTC/Cervélo & the resultant good publicity (which is what to a large extent it’s all about) would encourage other men’s teams to consider it. So here I suppose yet again I am in the unaccustomed position of having to praise Footon/Geox/Gianetti.
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
Gianetti, ha!
Yep, I think you make a goog point. What I like about Vroomen’s comment is more the challenge he’s throwing out, and the implication that women’s cycling should be given greater prominence than it currently receives.
No, I think you're right, it is a challenge and a perfectly fair one
just probably fairer to Sky than to, say, Milram.
I haven’t really seen anything much (not that I’ve looked terribly hard) about how exactly the Footon/Safi/Geox thing has come about, whether it’s through the (Italian) sponsor or what. But it kind of fits nicely with Footon’s clean-slate-no-we-aren’t-Saulnier-Duval-in-disguise PR strategy this year (whether it’s an accurate representation of Gianetti & co.‘s working methods or not I live more in hope than expectation). Running a women’s team = immediate positive PR.
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
I'm not sure whether the team management will be in common
with Footon/Safi/Geox or whether it is just the sponsor for separate teams as is the case with Omega Pharma-Lotto/Lotto Ladies Team.
Does anyone know?
by Creeping Tortoise on Sep 2, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet...
it keeps the Safi team management, similar to what we’re hearing is happening at Garmin-Cervélo. But I haven’t seen any confirmation on that, yet. I’ll watch the Italian press.
I saw that Claudio Corti is to be team manager
I think that’s in a back in the office sense, since Diana Ziliute has been doing a pretty good job DSing this year. Mind, I’m not sure about how well off Safi are now. Most of the other teams travel in cars, campers, Luton vans etc. while they’ve had that big coach with Marina’s face on the side.
I've been thinking about this for a few years...
and what I would like to see is a ProTour rule which is something along the lines of each team having to put an amount of money at least equal to their average rider salary towards the women’s side of the sport – be that a team, a development squad or “come and try” days.
Why average salary? It means that small teams (small being a relative term) aren’t hit with a larger cost than they can handle and if all the teams complain that they can’t afford it the UCI could reduce the maximum number of riders from 30 to 29 without much impact to the teams from a sporting perspective.
I wouldn’t insist that they run the teams themselves (though there are certainly economies of scale to be had) as there are perfectly functional teams that struggle to get enough sponsorship each year which I’m sure would be happy for the support. Gauss, RedSun and Nederland are three that spring immediately to mind.
As for there being enough riders for there to be an expansion… they are there. As has been said above, with the exception of a couple of teams (who are linked with a men’s team) there is just no career as a super domestique, or any domestique for that matter, in women’s cycling. You have to win or have the potential to win just to get a very lowly paying spot on a team for the next year. This leads to not much team work, a very cut-throat environment and a high attrition rate. If there was even enough to live on a lot of women would stick at it from the sheer love of cycling. The current situation also leads to short careers as once the form starts to drop there is no point in hanging around so all that experience is lost from the peloton as well.
You might find the average level in the women’s peloton drops in the first few years (you might not too) but that is where the development programs and “come and try” days would fit in.
Why should women’s cycling be supported if it struggles on its own? Pure self interest. More people involved in the sport means more bike sales, more clothing sales and increased television audiences (women cyclists tend watch men’s races even if the reverse isn’t quite as true). Increased audiences leads to a larger return for the sponsor’s dollar so potentially more dollars and/or new sponsors who are interested in the changing demographic of the audience. These sponsors usually gravitate towards men’s teams but under my suggested rule a small proportion flows to women’s cycling… and on it goes.
I would love to see something like this happen and with people like Vroomen making the right noises maybe it can be something more than a pipe dream. Maybe.
by Creeping Tortoise on Sep 2, 2010 7:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Make it so!
This idea makes a great deal of sense. You could see loose partnerships where men’s teams contribute to a specific women’s team. Or, they could support a devo team in their home country. Yes, I really like this idea!
And self interest is exactly right. In particular, the bike industry stands to benefit hugely if they can draw more women into the sport. More riders, more bikes, more money. So simple.
Yo Vroomen, are you listening?
A few points
Salary and guaranteed prize money of an acceptable amount that isn’t scandalous to women’s cycling, but on the super domo, you are wrong. There are a number of super domos in women’s cycling and has been for many years. Heck I think Anke Wickman made a career out of it, some 20 years, but Kim Anderson also has notched out a nice career as a super domo, and there are others. Kim Anderson never won anything to speak of until she aced Route De France last year but before that she’s been a solid paid domo on HTC every since the days of T-Mobile.
The high attrition rate comes from the powers that be all over the place that want to keep women’s cycling marginalized at the edges. They throw just enough money at the sport to keep it going so the women’s cycling sporting community as a whole doesn’t have a major melt down and declare war. So what you are left with is a sport where solid talent doesn’t enter the sport very often and when it does find a gem like Evie Stevens they are not likely to stay long cause they find out there is no money in it.
While that works for the oppressors who want to make sure men’s cycling gets 99 percent of the pie, the women side remains to be severely anemic, and can’t get a foot up on the sport. Right now women are using the mantra that they do it because they love the sport which is the glass half full spiel, but the truth is they won’t stay with it very long without pay cause that love runs sour after a while.
Getting no pay, and having to pay out of pocket to race is a real morale killer, as well as sleeping in vans and eating crappy food. These are all factors like leaving the sport, good riddens as Brooke Miller said, she’s not hanging around to share her experience or become part of team management. That’s what happens most of the time, it’s later days, I’m out of here. Can you blame them?
A good point is that women’s sales are pretty hefty in the real world for bike related merchandise but that has not transferred over into women’s cycling. When one side of the sport is keep so severely marginalized at the edges, it’s becomes nearly impossible to solve these problems without a major mogul stepping who is willing to pump million into the sport. There are lots of possible solutions, but there is a priority to keep the best men happy in the sport, over the best women.
by Sarah Bishop on Sep 3, 2010 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Kim Anderson was one of the riders I was thinking about when I said “with the exception of a couple of teams…”
by Creeping Tortoise on Sep 3, 2010 6:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I am sorry
But I don’t think this a relatively painless plan. Men’s cycling isn’t the most financially stable of sports. Half the biggest teams need rich backers to stabilize their finances. Every year teams crater (even teams owned by their sponsors!)
I am very supportive of the UCI doing more to promote women’s cycling, especially with regards to the calendar. But taxing men’s teams isn’t the answer.
I agree with what Vroomen said. It is a matter of respect. But cycling should be run like a business like most professional sports.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
by lieutenantmudd on Sep 3, 2010 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
do you think cycling really is "run like a business" though?
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
Some teams are
And I think people are missing Vroomen’s point. His point was that bike manufacturers who sell bikes to men and women and only support men’s teams should be shamed into supporting women’s teams as well.
Since his men’s team went under because of the various fees associated with fielding a pro team, I doubt he would be supportive of additional fees on men’s pro teams.
Women’s cycling shouldn’t be supported by a fee on men’s cycling. Sponsors should be convinced to voluntarily support women’s cycling directly.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
by lieutenantmudd on Sep 3, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Miss 10
If you read this interview on Miss 10, it’s somewhat interesting.
http://tinyurl.com/2btwsb5
She said that Honda has had a very nice return on the investment, and they are happy. I think this is an interesting case, and women’s cycling should take a look at what Rochelle did with the team here.
again though, how precisely is a cycling team "run like a business"? Which do you have in mind?
I’m not sure anyone in their right mind would run a business like a cycling team.
(I’m not sure I read Vroomen’s comments in the article quite in the way you’re suggesting,, either. But then my earlier post says what I think of his idea.)
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
It's easier to point out team that clearly aren't run as businesses
Teams like Astana and BMC that clearly couldn’t survive without the generousness of their backers. And both teams are de facto (if not explicitly) owned by their largest sponsor and there’s no way the return on investment for BMC bikes is positive.
Then you take a team like Team Saxo Bank. Bjarne Riis isn’t dumping millions of dollars a year into a team. Riis Cycling is a company and probably a, at least mildly, profitable company. It sells naming and promotional rights to its sponsors. If it made less from sponsorship deals than it cost to run, I doubt Bjarne Riis could or would continue to run the team.
Other sports provide even better examples. You can either not care how much money you lose running your team because you like the sport or you have other goals. Or you can run your team like a business and demand that long term, you spend less than you make.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
by lieutenantmudd on Sep 3, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
One problem
And it’s quite a biggie I’m afraid, is that “run like a business” is a very vague expression. I can think of a number of basic characteristics of a business, some of them apply to cycling teams and some of them don’t. And those who do aren’t necessarily solely tied to businesses.
It’s of course true that some cycling teams can be viewed as projects with a limited time span already from the beginning, whereas some teams is planned to go on forever (hoping to find new generous backers if/when needed). Perhaps the first kind of teams shouldn’t be defined as business (but I’m not entirely convinced that it is a good demarcation, since the thought of a short-term business isn’t too far-fetched). But I’m even less convinced that the second kind of teams should be viewed as business-run, since there are a number of similar organizations, run in the same way, that clearly are not. Charities, non-profits, any other sports clubs, etc. share the same characteristic.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 3, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Run sport like a business? Ha Ha
Look at all the football fans in the UK who talk seriously about persuading their team’s owners to sell out to a rich Arab who will “invest” in the team.
I am quite happy with my football team being owned by default by the Co-op Bank.
Even if it means we’ve been relegated & we’re being chased by the taxman & have absolutely no money.
"I was just trying to keep warm" - Ian Stannard on finishing third in KBK
i think it's a brilliant idea
and would work like a charm and in five years we couldn’t imagine not having women’s racing
It's interesting looking at track
because at the Manchester World Cup track meets I’ve been to, you don’t get people sloping off to buy beer in the women’s races (they do it in the scratch & points & madison!) – and it’s all got an equally good atmosphere. Possibly because the UK is so damn good at track (;-D!) – and there’s tv coverage & people know who the British riders are, at least. It’s like the athletics meets I went to as a kiddy – it’s a lot easier to televise etc as it’s all in one place, and it’s perfect for people with short attention spans, like me….
that's one problem
Road races classics and especially stage races are dead meat unless they are covered on the moto by a professional TV crew who then can deliver the race either live or delayed feed to the public. Stadium events should be a custom fit for Americans, hot dogs, Beer, Pizza and Pepsi, all while sitting in the same place. The logistics of covering a stage race is a major pain, I know guys who have both filmed and produced stage races for TV. Lots of work everyday on the moto and in the editing studio. Lots of TV crews have covered some stage races in the past, but often only highlights ended up on the evening news.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a pro crew
Motomediateam seem to be a small group of Belgian fans who video the lower level races, the stuff that Sporza doesn’t cover, just as a hobby. I wish some other racs would realise that there are other choices between full pro video with helicopters etc. and no video. And actually the Muri Fermani hired a helicopter to give live video of the morning sportive (if not for the afternoon’s women’s race) earlier this year.
Correct
In Sequoia one year, a small crew did a video production for the Internet. It was decent. What they did was set up 4 cameras on the course. They placed one camera at 4 different places on the course. The live feed of those 4 cameras for the NRC crit was directed back to a tent they set up. Inside they edited the 4 feeds together, spliced and editing the best segments for a delayed video they posted to the Internet with both live audio from the race announcers and the overdubbed comments. Not bad for amatuers!
by Sarah Bishop on Sep 4, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
If it's logical
to Require men’s sponsors to also sponsor women’s teams, isn’t it also logical to Require someone like Brooke Miller, for instance, to continue racing?
Under contract
Yeah, to finish out her contract, but riders can be releashed from their contracts. I think Brooke pretty much had a free hand at Tibco, she was part of it’s creation. I am sure Linda is bummed, Brooke was her prodigy.
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