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Sports Illustrated: Lance Armstrong Doping Story Time

Lance Armstrong, Tour de France 2010. Photo: Bryn Lennon/Getty. Rumors about this story have swirled about the internet for weeks. Sports Illustrated is writing about Armstrong and doping, whispered anonymous writers in the know. It's coming out this week. No, it's next week. Really, everything Armstrong-related leads to endless rumoring.

Now Sports Illustrated has published a teaser for the story. The print version comes tomorrow. Yes, my friends, I will take one for the team, hop on my blue bicycle, and go purchase an espresso and Sports Illustrated, in that order. I believe that will be a first for me. You win, SI, you win.

The teaser offers up several incidents that in the view of writers Selena Roberts and David Epstein confirm that Armstrong used doping products. Stephen Swart appears again as an on-the-record source for the story. Swart previously figured in a New York Times story by Juliet Macur, which sought to uncover similar details of doping by Armstrong and his team-mates. Swart confirms EPO use and high hematocrit at the Motorola team during the 1995 Tour. Floyd Landis also serves as a source and recounts an incident in which border inspectors in St. Moritz allowed Armstrong to bring "vitamins" into the country.

Remember that Italian raid on Popovych's place? Yes, I thought you did. According to Sports Illustrated, the Italian authorities found doping products and messages to Dr. Ferrari (really, who keeps this stuff around their house?) that suggest links between Ferrari and Armstrong's team. Anonymous sources also bring news that Armstrong reportedly recorded high T/E ratios during the years 1993-1996, including a 9.0-to-1.0 reading, and that Armstrong acquired HemAssist from Baxter Healthcare Corp. while the drug was in clinical trials.

Nom nom nom, scandal, nom nom nom. Tomorrow comes the full story, which may - or may not - include more information than the teaser. No doubt we will also go the full round of denials and public relations spinning. Really, that's my favorite part. Also, the world will keep turning, and somewhere, there will be bike racing.

Update! Sports Illustrated has now posted a link to the full story. Read it, if you dare. Also, this analysis by Joe Lindsey of the HemAssist piece of the story is worth reading. I'll be back later with some more writings. Meanwhile, feel free to talk amongst yourselves. If you have an extended comment on this fandango, roll on over to the fanposts and do it up. ~Gav.

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Comments

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very interesting.

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 18, 2011 6:15 PM EST reply actions  

Psshh, he's being framed.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 18, 2011 6:31 PM EST reply actions  

Roger Rabbit?

Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...

by TheFigurehead on Jan 18, 2011 6:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Happy to be a SI subscriber!!

Quick note to Jens….OMG….you are on fire on Twitter…absolutely hilarious tweets!!

by steph- on Jan 18, 2011 6:40 PM EST reply actions  

this might beat the swimsuit issue

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 18, 2011 6:46 PM EST reply actions  

that's just crazy talk right there

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 18, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

BANNED

"I briefly played on a soccer team where we took great joy yelling 'come on fuschia'" by Willj

by JustJoshinYa on Jan 18, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

never happen..

models in body paint or emaciated washed up former tour winner finally gets his due? I know where my money goes.

Anyone who has every thought a working Photojournalist has a glam job needs to rethink...

by Christopher See on Jan 18, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's see, SI issue with LA on the cover or...


would you like to reconsider now ant1?

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 18, 2011 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

PdC = NSFW?

It was bound to happen…

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 18, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

It's art Chris, c'mon

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 18, 2011 8:14 PM EST up reply actions  

well it’s def painting

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 19, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I may not know art

but I know what I like

Jens! Voigt puts the 'laughter' in 'manslaughter'

by Jimbo... on Jan 19, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

She's covered.

Mostly.

I confess, I’d much prefer to be buying the swimsuit issue than the Lance Armstrong issue tomorrow. Will I lose my girl card if I say I actually like the swimsuit issue? Yes, Gav, yes you will.

by Jen See on Jan 18, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

you'd probably lose your feminist card

but I suppose it is about fashion and can be a helpful buyer’s guide, so I suppose you could keep your girl card

by Nomer on Jan 18, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions  

depends

if you’re in it for the clothes or those waves behind the model. Me, I have my suspicions.

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 18, 2011 10:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Massive disappointment

If those waves do anything for Gavia. You couldn’t catch those with a 10’6" log.

I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
www.battleredblog.com

by tehGrindCrusher on Jan 19, 2011 12:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

now that's the first nice kit i've seen this year.

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 18, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Well played sir.

Anyone who has every thought a working Photojournalist has a glam job needs to rethink...

by Christopher See on Jan 18, 2011 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Me, I think there's too much blue.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 18, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't think it would live up

to the hype, and it doesn’t look like it’s going to.

I mean, it’s interesting and all to get little details that tend to fit with the story we all assume, but . . .

by Sui Juris on Jan 18, 2011 7:00 PM EST reply actions  

I'm kinda with you...I guess if this were a report about what the Grand Jury is hearing, then it would be really interesting...

oh wait…is it?

"I briefly played on a soccer team where we took great joy yelling 'come on fuschia'" by Willj

by JustJoshinYa on Jan 18, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I kinda like

confirmed details like this. I mean, yeah, I’ve yet to be surprised by any of these revelation stories. But it’s still nice to have it on the record. It’s sorta like classified documents – there usually aren’t too many surprises, because you already probably know the arc of the narrative without them. But they fill in the details and enrich the narrative, such as it is.

Really, though, I’m ready to be done with this Mr. Armstrong.

by Jen See on Jan 18, 2011 7:16 PM EST up reply actions  

careful Gavia

next thing you know you’ll be a SI subscriber, and start referring to cycling as under the “more sports” tab ;)

I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it

by plinytheelder on Jan 18, 2011 7:01 PM EST reply actions  

Yikes!

ZOmg, I’m scared now!!!

by Jen See on Jan 18, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously

Cuz like the more people who hit it? The more, er, More Sports, they’ll have :)

by Jen See on Jan 18, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions  

hehe, don’t get me wrong, I go there quite a bit…but it’s to check basketball scores ;)

I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it

by plinytheelder on Jan 18, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions  

It's interesting, for sure

But nothing shocking if you had followed the sport or the story.

by BDBrian on Jan 18, 2011 7:02 PM EST reply actions  

But is this the 'real' story

Or a heavily edited version?

by R Mc on Jan 18, 2011 7:05 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

That's right

it’s not about the story, it’s the coverup!

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 18, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a summary of tomorrow’s print story, but I don’t think you meant that. Several people said that the Livestrong angle or subplot or paragraph, whatever, has vanished. So most of it is there but no Livestrong related stuff.

by tedvdw on Jan 18, 2011 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Si

Unless the Livestrong stuff appears tomorrow.

by Jen See on Jan 18, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

p.s.

this is truly improbable, Gav buying SI. Between this story and the Jets probably being on the cover, you couldn’t pay me enough to touch SI this week.

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 18, 2011 7:08 PM EST reply actions  

they are

brady getting sacked.

GO STEELERS!

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 18, 2011 7:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm dustin' off my TERRIBLE TOWEL!!!

BAH!!!!....Cavendish?! Double BAH!!! Sky!!

TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent

by bradBordeaux on Jan 19, 2011 4:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Never been a SI reader, especially...

since I found out that the hysteria towards pitbull dogs owes much to a 1987 SI article. I own two pitties. Best dogs ever!

They have since redeemed themselves with a article on the rehabilitation of the Michael Vick pit bulls.

Now they’ve come out with a story that is very hard not to buy into. Most of you know that I am not the biggest LA fan, but I was kind of coming around to him during the Second Coming.

I just hope it comes to a conclusion, as I am tired of reading “the same old liars telling the same old lies” about Lance.

What amazes me most is, that not even counting the French, there are so many people willing to completely throw LA under the broom wagon! Why would so many people lie? Just because is supposedly a jerk of the first magnitude?

I think the minority who came out against him before now (i.e. Betsy Andreu) were so completely pilloried, that most would consider it professional suicide to do so.

Now it would seem that is not the case.

Let the cards fall where they may.

Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Jan 18, 2011 7:10 PM EST reply actions  

The French

I realize that to some the French have replaced the Poles as everybody’s favorite minority to harass, but, as someone who lives in France, I can tell you, the French LOVE that guy. I was in many a bar when LA won a race, and EVERYBODY cheered real loud. True, magazines are sold by knocking him, but- that happens here too! (“Sports” Illustrated).

by velocodger on Jan 19, 2011 1:54 AM EST up reply actions  

wow, you must live in a diff. part of france than me...

round here, at least amongst the racing ground, there reigns a sort of benign indifference that leans, at times towards contempt….

BAH!!!!....Cavendish?! Double BAH!!! Sky!!

TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent

by bradBordeaux on Jan 19, 2011 4:11 AM EST up reply actions  

why I wrote 'ground' and not 'crowd', I do not know...

BAH!!!!....Cavendish?! Double BAH!!! Sky!!

TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent

by bradBordeaux on Jan 19, 2011 4:12 AM EST up reply actions  

i come across

both types all the time. Big fans and those who really don’t like him. As for coverage on the telly they seem to be mostly very positive towards him, from what i’ve seen.

by yeehoo on Jan 19, 2011 4:57 AM EST up reply actions  

my Parisian friends

… not fans.

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 19, 2011 11:19 AM EST up reply actions  

i would guess

there are more against him but those who are fans are happy to express their fanhood to an american – but i do come across them quite often. But who knows? Even my own household is divided – i mostly don’t like him, my gf is a big fan. Have to admit i enjoy her enthusiasm.

by yeehoo on Jan 19, 2011 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I mainly see in France

A grudging respect as a cyclist but a complete belief that he doped

I stopped wearing US Postal kit when watching the Tour and Dauphine back in 2004 and instead prefer chatting with the locals

moo

by Willj on Jan 19, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

instead prefer chatting with the locals

So it’s the kit or the conversation? Can’t have both!

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 19, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

'A grudging respect as a cyclist but a complete belief that he doped'

To me, the french attitude couldn’t have been summed up better…..nice one

PS…I’m going to be in Villard de Lens next week…that’s your way sort of, no?

BAH!!!!....Cavendish?! Double BAH!!! Sky!!

TLP 7.0 Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent

by bradBordeaux on Jan 20, 2011 4:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Beats the hell out of Bradley Wggns’ latest. What is it with that guy and his man crushes?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 20, 2011 4:22 AM EST up reply actions  

SI has a lot of fluff

But they also have some great articles, particularly when they excerpt from books. For example, they excerpted a passage from “The Blind Side” – the best one, really – long before it became a noxious movie. Likewise they ran a piece on a legendary trotter named Dan Patch and a really good article (for the uninitiated) on surfing at Mavericks recently.

Which is to say they balance out Peter King, who is an idiot of galactic proportions.

I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
www.battleredblog.com

by tehGrindCrusher on Jan 19, 2011 12:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Rutger Hauer!

No wait, that was Blind Side.

by tedvdw on Jan 19, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

I am confused by this from the story:
According to the story, “If a court finds that Armstrong won his titles while taking performance-enhancing drugs, his entourage may come to be known as the domestiques of the saddest deception in sports history.”

…and what is he? A deceiver, I guess…but so what? What actually happens to him – I really forget. Is he going to serve time or pay a fine?

"I briefly played on a soccer team where we took great joy yelling 'come on fuschia'" by Willj

by JustJoshinYa on Jan 18, 2011 7:13 PM EST reply actions  

He will suffer?

Humiliations galore.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 18, 2011 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

What does suffer mean?

Somehow I imagine if this all comes “crashing down”, he’ll skate and retire to Aspen. I wish I could suffer that way. Maybe I have little faith (if in fact this is all true) that this will amount to anything more then a great big, “I told you so” and we’re back to, “everybody else was doing it” and it all gets dusted away. But, I’m rambling…

"I briefly played on a soccer team where we took great joy yelling 'come on fuschia'" by Willj

by JustJoshinYa on Jan 18, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmmmm...

think Princess Bride
3:40ish

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 18, 2011 8:28 PM EST up reply actions  

it's a zero sum game

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 18, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

This comment deserves more attention.

I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
www.battleredblog.com

by tehGrindCrusher on Jan 19, 2011 12:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Well played, ant1

well played

Jens! Voigt puts the 'laughter' in 'manslaughter'

by Jimbo... on Jan 19, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks guys

i was pretty proud of myself for that one.

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 19, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

One for every Tour

(He lost one in a bet when he said he could tell Mary-Kate from Ashley.)

by tedvdw on Jan 19, 2011 7:04 AM EST up reply actions  

How exactly is that

‘losing’?

And the UCI failed… on all accounts. - tgsgirl

by omnevelnihil on Jan 19, 2011 7:41 AM EST up reply actions  

that one still creeps me out. Both of them together are perhaps his age...

"I briefly played on a soccer team where we took great joy yelling 'come on fuschia'" by Willj

by JustJoshinYa on Jan 19, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Not really...

He’ll live in Austin like a king and no one in Austin will even care.

Hell, it was a French conspiracy after all.

Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Jan 18, 2011 7:40 PM EST reply actions  

Don't be so sure.

There’s reasons Armstrong high-tailed it to Aspen most of the time.

Spelled “angry neighbors.”

by R Mc on Jan 18, 2011 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Nobody likes it

when an accused doper hogs the water.

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 18, 2011 10:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments hidden

Well, it’s not easy to read comments on this blog. Is it coincidence or on purpose? Many blogs use the comments to create and maintain interest in the blog. I had a comment to make on this story but, since no one will see it, I won’t make it. ‘Jus sayin’.

by velocodger on Jan 19, 2011 1:41 AM EST reply actions  

Scroll down to comments.

OK, I found the comments section below the ads. Duh. I propose everyone read the Sports Illustrated story in the store, but don’t buy this magazine. This mag has a long history of being anti-cycling, and now that they have a chance to discredit the sport, they jump on the bandwagon. Their idea of a “sport” is one where a beer-bellied sedentary guy watches multi-million dollar “athletes” on TV, and NEVER does the “sport” himself.

by velocodger on Jan 19, 2011 1:47 AM EST reply actions  

Lance

If LA bowed out gracefully after the 2005 Tour —-I bet that all of his current issues would be moot.

I guess marathon appearances and mountain bike races couldn’t fill the void. Fame is addictive.

by GreenJersey on Jan 19, 2011 2:29 AM EST reply actions  

You've saved gavia from buying SI...how kind.

"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'

by Seahorse on Jan 19, 2011 7:24 AM EST up reply actions  

What I don't get is the info on the Popo raid in the lede

If this was true, wouldn’t he be banned from racing right now and proceedings started up against him?

"Thanks again, Floyd Landis, Yellow Jersey Wearer: Nuisance Category"

by PopUp Rolen on Jan 19, 2011 8:13 AM EST reply actions  

But the UCI need to get all the information from the investigation first

And Novitzky et al might not be prepared to share info at this point.

Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...

by TheFigurehead on Jan 19, 2011 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Perhaps the Italians are going to start proceedings?

Or, they have, but it hasn’t made the press? Or, it’s wrapped up in Novitzky, so the sports authorities get it last?

Hmm, I’m betting CONI will have something to say about this one.

by Jen See on Jan 19, 2011 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

OMG! Noooo! LA doped?!? My faith in humanity is destroyed! :(

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 19, 2011 12:02 PM EST reply actions  

We're all in shock right now.

But together we can get through this and back to our regularly-scheduled ambivalence.

I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
www.battleredblog.com

by tehGrindCrusher on Jan 19, 2011 12:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Yep, he comes across as suspect or incompetent. I found this striking:
Catlin was read his 1999 letter. He said that because he tested by code and not by name, he has “no clue which sample belonged to Lance,” but he admits the data are disturbing. He explains that one failed confirmation would be a “once-in-a-blue-moon” occurrence. As for the three high T/E ratio results detailed in the letter, he says, “that’s very strange.” When Catlin’s letter was read to Breidbach recently, he too expressed concern, saying, “Wow, that should not happen. If you find a nine and can’t confirm, then something is very wrong with your screening test.”

"I briefly played on a soccer team where we took great joy yelling 'come on fuschia'" by Willj

by JustJoshinYa on Jan 19, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

My thoughts exactly.

You have to wonder if there was ever going to be any real testing done by Catlin during Lance’s comeback. If there were any adverse findings, would they have been swept under the rug, or like the high T/E ratios, simply not “confirmed?” Was he going to be hired simply because he was the most highly qualified spin doctor available?

Twitter username: FitTechEric

by The Team Chef on Jan 19, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

He was hired because he had a pristine reputation.

And (biased judgment ahead), like many half-truths* emanating from Club Lie-strong, once the announcement of the hiring cycled through the main-stream press, the rhetorical work of propping of Armstrong’’s reputation had been done.

  • I do not have time to itemize or explain these. Let’s just leave it at a statement that for several years Armstrong has been a master of gaming the news cycle.

by R Mc on Jan 19, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Another interesting bit in the Catlin story

is that the deal was terminated by him, rather than Armstrong, fearing that Astana wasn’t going to make good on the $600K bill. If I’m not mistaken, weren’t we all given the impression that Lance was going to be footing the bill for his own independent testing program? I guess LA’s “I’ll ride for free” line wasn’t entirely true.

Twitter username: FitTechEric

by The Team Chef on Jan 19, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

UCI regulations make it impossible to ride for free

from what i was made to understand a little while ago. although i’m sure one is only a ‘gift’ to the UCI away from having that rule not apply.

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 19, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Repeating myself from FB:

I find it perplexing that Armstrong persisted in the lies about “riding for free” for Astana when the truth could have been turned into better PR.

Had he distributed a PR stating that UCI regulations required him to take a salary, but that he was going to donate that amount to charity . . . HOW could that not have produced an “Aww, what a great dude” response?

Instead, when asked about it in follow-ups he kept up the lie . . . I don’t get it.

by R Mc on Jan 19, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

yup

or at least, that’s the bit in this article that actually feels relevant.

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 19, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

HemAssist. Was this banned at the time these guys contend LA acquired some? And can they be sure that he acquired it for personal use and not for the use of one of the team’s mechanics?

T/E count. If the teflon Don cleared him then he must be clean. Wll be interesting to see how JV and BS respond to this (most likely: silence). If this story hurts DC then it hurts them.

On the Ferrari links – wasn’t there someone last year who said that Ferrari had been seen staying at the same hotel as LA recently?

You know the story that hurts in all of this? The 1995 one, the one that says he was doped the day he won into Limoges. I may not be a fan, but that was one day I loved the guy.

BTB, I woulda thought SI had some decent fact checkers on board, and not just lawyers. David Walsh ain’t a Brit, and they got the date for the 50% rule way wrong. Lil things, but the lil things matter.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 19, 2011 1:04 PM EST reply actions  

Re: HemAssist

It doesn’t matter if it was a banned substance. The stuff never made it out of clinical trials. It would have been illegal for anyone to have it in their possession. If it can indeed be proven that Armstrong obtained the artificial blood, whether he actually used it or not, he’s in deep shit. Where does someone get their hands on a drug that hasn’t been approved by the FDA? I’m guessing from someone at the drug company. Was HemAssist also trafficked to Europe? If so, by whom? I think it’s becoming pretty clear why the FDA is so involved. If the SI article is accurate, Armstrong may be just one piece of a much larger puzzle.

Twitter username: FitTechEric

by The Team Chef on Jan 19, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Well it does matter if it was banned, am sorry. Just like Moser and the LA Olympians’ blood doping. Look at the Actovegen story.

You say simply possessing the drug was illegal – by whose rules? The UCI’s or the real world’s?

As for the clinical trials side of the story – the general issue is not new, we’ve known for quite some time now that drugs used in clincal trials were being used in the peloton. Where do you get these things? Not just the drug companies. The hospitals and the doctors running the trials are also sources.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 19, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Possession of HemAssist

would be illegal under U.S. law, because it’s not approved for human use by the FDA. Also, even if it were approved, possession of a prescription drug without a prescription is also illegal.

by Jen See on Jan 19, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions  

So he ain’t broken any UCI rules then, has he? :)

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 19, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions  

So what are we hounding him for? :)

C’mon, give the guy a break. The HemAssist … he coulda bin part of a clinical trial, and, you know, wanted to keep it quiet, didn’t want to brag about the sterllng work he does trying to save our lives.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 19, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't understand this line of logic

Should I be taking the “:)” as sarcasm? The internet makes tone so difficult to decipher.

Possession of HemAssist would fall directly under intent to dope. This is why Frigo got banned for HemAssist in 2003(even though he only had saline…not EVEN a drug, but the intent was there)

It would also fall under the same reasoning as Basso and Valverde – intent to dope, and possession of doping products.

I’m surprised that there seems to be confusion on that since I remember being argued against quite vigorously on my stance that intent to dope should be a lesser suspension than being “caught” in competition with Valverde.

There were many voices against me in that argument…remember yours?

I still believe that with Armstrong, intent to dope, alone, should get him…say 6 months, like intent to commit a crime (robbery, murder, etc.) vs (doing it).

However, as I argued with Valverde, the testimony needs to be considered as well. Testimony for Kelme days were in the past 03-04, and there is reasonable grounds that Valv. moved on.

With Armstrong, testimony continues throughout the height of his career, and even as late as 2009 according to the latest raid. It’s substantial enough that he should lose his Tour de France victories (for the period of testimony) + a ~1 year suspension (for evidence of intent to dope)

Either way… he certainly HAS broken UCI rules, by possessing an illegal substance with the intent to dope, there is no way around that.

by LawrenceS on Jan 20, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Keep in mind, I understand that my ideas of how the UCI should punish are very different than how they do punish. So, maybe there is little interest on my part to argue that again, as it got pretty tiring with Valverde.

What isn’t arguable is that this would fall directly under article 2.2 of the legal code appendix:

Use or attempted use of a prohibited substance or a prohibited method.

2.2.1 … It is sufficient that the prohibited substance of prohibited method was used or attempted to be used for an anti-doping rule violation to be committed.

NOTE: "Use can be proved, for example, through admissions, third-party testimony or other evidence.

And as The Team Chef pointed out all HBOCS are banned, falling under the “not limited to” list.

by LawrenceS on Jan 20, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Eh

You read way more into a flippant comment than was intended.

Actually, I totally forgot that Frigo got nailed for HemAssist possession. Yes, they could try the “intent to dope” angle.

by Jen See on Jan 20, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup, I forot Frigo’s bust too.

Was really just trying to make funny. LA got away with Actovegen.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 21, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Just came across this in another forum:

All hemoglobin-based based oxygen carriers (HBOCs) are on the banned list. I suppose this would extend to HemAssist and any other as yet undetected wonder bloods. I have no idea if this this is true, I’m too lazy to do the research right now.

Twitter username: FitTechEric

by The Team Chef on Jan 20, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Are now but were they then? :)

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 21, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry. Maybe I misunderstood the context of your post.

The knock against Novitsky’s investigation has been “why is the FDA wasting taxpayer $$ investigating PEDs?” If hospitals, doctors, and drug companies are aiding in the distribution of drugs in the U.S. not yet approved by the FDA, then someone is definitely going to be doing some jail time for violating the law, thus my use of the word “illegal.”

I never really understood why the FDA would give a damn if LA doped his way to 7 TdF victories. Not to state the obvious, but this all happened on French soil, so why should a U.S. agency want to get involved. Of course, the UCI may certainly care, along with all us cycling fans, but I always had the feeling there was something else going on here besides outing Lance as a doper.

Twitter username: FitTechEric

by The Team Chef on Jan 19, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

IIRC part of it has to do with the fact that he may have misrepresented himself to the Postal Service.

If he claimed to be dope-free (and was doping at the time) and used that as one of his main selling points to bring in USPS as a sponsor then he is guilty of defrauding the government.

I'll eliminate you like I eliminate gluten from my diet.
www.battleredblog.com

by tehGrindCrusher on Jan 19, 2011 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

I've considered it from that angle, as well, but

I’m not sure they would ever be able to get something like that to stick in court. They may yet make that part of their case, but it seems there had to be something else, something more concrete. Trafficking/possessing/distributing drugs not yet approved by the FDA is pretty black and white, and could involve some real jail time for somebody. The Joel Lindsey article referenced in the update to the original post provides a nice summation of the new HemAssist allegations.

Twitter username: FitTechEric

by The Team Chef on Jan 19, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Possible, yes

There were doping clauses in the later contracts – that was in the ESPN story from last week.

by Jen See on Jan 19, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I think you’re making the same Freudian slip I did on the Leopard thing last week. Them’s anti-doping clauses.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 19, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

That possibly better represents its intent

but not technically wrong, I don’t think. Now, Chris’ “doping enforcement” on the other hand …

by tedvdw on Jan 20, 2011 5:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Ha!

Yes, doping enforcement does have an opposites day feel, doesn’t it?

Clauses covering doping? Or, anti-doping clauses. Right. Taking notes, here.

by Jen See on Jan 20, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

well

“doping enforcement” was accurate back in the day, right?

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 20, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Roland Rat, poster on CN

wrote this;
 Popovych…

Subpoenaed in the US 22 October 2010

Testifies before the Grand Jury before leaving for Italy

Raided in Italy 11 November 2010, about 3 weeks after being subpoenaed.

Either he is the dumbest motherhubbard ever to walk the earth or he wanted them to find his diaries.

I wonder how many other teammates have been exceedingly stupid…
__________________

Popo’s not this dumb is he?

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the Flag and carrying the Cross."
--Sinclair Lewis

by MavicMoto on Jan 19, 2011 1:49 PM EST reply actions  

Or is the SI article wrong on Popo?

Something about the Popo bit always bothered me (see upthread) because I am pretty sure something would have leaked about the findings by now. In a CN article, he denies everything in the SI article.

Granted denials aren’t worth much nowadays, but it seems improbably that they found drugs and it wasn’t front page news.

"Thanks again, Floyd Landis, Yellow Jersey Wearer: Nuisance Category"

by PopUp Rolen on Jan 19, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

he's being framed

(slightly sarcastic response – “slightly” because, oh boy, you never know anymore)

"I briefly played on a soccer team where we took great joy yelling 'come on fuschia'" by Willj

by JustJoshinYa on Jan 19, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the link

Sounds credible. At least Popo may not have problems.

This whole LA and Dope stuff is a slow-motion train wreck: horrifying, fascinating and with an utterly predictable outcome. Even if HWSNBN evades justice this time.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the Flag and carrying the Cross."
--Sinclair Lewis

by MavicMoto on Jan 19, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

But there's some weak stuff in that article too
"It is also not true that the police found evidence of links between Armstrong and Dr Ferrari. That’s because the electronics expert who has been asked to study the contents of two laptops and two mobile phones has still to submit his report to the magistrate Benedetto Roberti."

That’s some flawed logic right there. Quite often the people who you work for wants to know the actual results before there’s an official report, and obviously finding the evidence doesn’t depend on the actual report.

Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...

by TheFigurehead on Jan 19, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Not buying the denial

I’m not sure how NAS kept the doping products out of the Italian press – At the time, all we got was that there’d been a raid and that the authorities had taken computers and some substances. No details. Very interesting.

Sometimes, CONI is slow. So, it’s possible that the Italians are still working on preparing a case. They would be within rights to bring a case against Popovych as they did with Valverde – Popovych raced in Italy, though he carried a non-Italian license. But the whole thing is complicated by the progress of the U.S. case. For example, I could imagine the U.S. authorities asking the Italians to hold off from opening their case until the U.S. Grand Jury was done. Or some such thing.

The other question is whether there is another case against Ferrari in the making here.

by Jen See on Jan 19, 2011 8:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Once again we are cast into the role of discussing OPBF

Other People’s Bodily Fluids

When will they subpoena the Man himself?

by Chief42 on Jan 19, 2011 5:30 PM EST reply actions  

Typically

the object of a Grand Jury investigation is called to testify last, or not at all. So, they may not call him at all.

by Jen See on Jan 19, 2011 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

This case is not typical in any way shape or form - except as a keystone cops effort..

..which so common down through time.

Lance will be called, last maybe, but in this type of witch hunt, he will be in front of the grand jury. 100%.

I claim no legal expertise or anything close to it, but it is so obvious they don’t have him on anything and so much $ has been spent already. Lance will take the stand, and his confidential testimony will be leaked, not exactly like what happened to Bonds and Giambi, the leak will be more sinister, and designed to sway public opinion against Lance.

And then there won’t be any trial and that will be the end of it.

People, don’t ever fuck with the FDA with your bike. If you know what’s good for you, don’t do it.

“I did not have sexual relations with that woman.” – WJC

by rubesANdbabes on Jan 20, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Given that Lance started out as just a regular rider for US Postal / Motorola:

Not sure that the gov’t can make stick the idea that he’s the ringleader, or the idea that this is somehow different and under more laws than say Barry Bonds being employed by a private corporation.

Lance as top mailman and therefore subject to more criminal scrutiny than others – I don’t think so – even as there were later contracts where the USPS/Tailwind ownership situation (salary?) with Lance had evolved financially.

by rubesANdbabes on Jan 20, 2011 11:58 AM EST reply actions  

If you believe that Armstrong was "just a regular rider" on USPS . . .

you believe something believed by none of the other riders and staff with that organization.

You might want to ask Marty Jemison, Dylan Casey, Kevin Livingston, Chann McRae, and a bunch of other riders about that one.

by R Mc on Jan 20, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

No, but that happened later, and none of those guys wore The Rainbow.

Yes, I guess there were later, after Lance winning at least 2 TDFs, sponsorship (advertising) contracts with USPS, where it’s obvious who got the big paycheck, but the defense is gonna be: here is an athlete who didn’t end up poor, like so many do, and now the gov’t is gonna scapegoat just him for attention, singling him out among many involved in this specific case, with a special hired bounty hunter from the FDA (The FDA? Who knew? Who else have they gone after?) and try to make him poor? And in the bigger picture, what about Haliburton’s criminal impact on gov’t and life in the USA vs. Lance Armstrong??

Lance has a good case to say he was only defending himself financially as an athlete throughout his career – people trying to say he was a mailman are just against.

by rubesANdbabes on Jan 20, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Look, go back to win Armstrong won that million dollar bonus

the notion that he WAS the guy on those teams goes back to then . .. when Paul Sherwen was assigned the job of making sure that Armstrong didn’t stick his foot in his mouth too often.

by R Mc on Jan 20, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, a jock defending himself financially - that's the story.

He was the star of a little team, in a little sport, and in no way shape or form was he scheming to defraud the gov’t four years later by violating FDA laws or whatever.

Probably W used to pat the Postmaster General on the back at Christmas parties back then about Lance, easy to imagine it happening, at least. Bread and circuses.

by rubesANdbabes on Jan 20, 2011 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Selena Roberts & David Epstein wrote an extremely glib article . . . .

 . . . . and I was honestly dsturbed at the seriously poor nature they presented Don Catlin, which is one of the most respected anti-doping scientists in the world today.

The information they present to suggest this man may be corrupt is about as thin as it gets.

I was really expecting a higher level of journalism then what I just read.
Then again, Selena has a record of doing half assed work, and neither of them actually has any formal understanding of what they are reporting on.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 20, 2011 5:16 PM EST reply actions  

regarding the respected anti doping scientist thing

so was the guy from humanplasma, or whatever that lab in austria was. then it turned out he was playing both sides. catlin might be without reproach, but if that’s not the case, i’d like to know about it.

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 20, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I would also like to know if Catlin is anything different then the outstanding reputation he has built throughout his career, but this article really was less then a half-assed way to speceulate on this possibility.

Sadly in this article, he seems to be defamed simply to add a little something to LA conspiracy theory.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 20, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

What was half-assed?

Seems a legitimate question: why could or did he not confirm three very high T-E ratios? He says so himself: very strange.

by tedvdw on Jan 20, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Because, there is a Standard Operating Proceedure.

You see, there is this thing called ‘science’ which requires conclusive results to actually confirm something.

The problem is ‘very strange’ does not equal conclusive, or a confrmation.

Typically, very strange = more data is needed; and that is what I think was his position at that time and now.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 20, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Mmmkay

Option 1) The equipment is flawed. Not good for a respected scientist.
Option 2) The method they use is severely flawed. Not good for a respected scientist.
Option 3) Someone tampered with the results. Very bad for a respected scientist.

Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...

by TheFigurehead on Jan 21, 2011 3:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Those options might be true if . . .

 . . . the test had a Repeatability & Reliability of 80+% and a CPK of +2.0

I suppose and overly simplified set of assumptions might work.

*Please note: To my knowlege, this test does not have a R&R cloe to 80% or a CPK of even 1.33.

So, I’m going to give the guy who is one of the best in the entire world ‘the benifit of the doubt’ that he’s smarter then I am and believe the results he concluded.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 21, 2011 6:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Wouldn't that imply that option number 2 is correct?

A test that are neither accurate nor precise is in my mind severely flawed. Especially if you want it to detect doping.

Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...

by TheFigurehead on Jan 21, 2011 6:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Should've been:

Widely respected by who?

Cuz I’ve been surprised in recent years by the lack of praise folks like ashenden have had for catlin.

by R Mc on Jan 20, 2011 6:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

In recent years, Catlin has been publically critical of the WADA and the system they were using to control doping in sports.

He has been advocating using something that he isdoing over at Garvelo which is really a totally different way to deal with doping.

Much of this, and the reputation has caused for a bit of ‘ego-sparing’ now an again.
The reality is, he’s one of the best in his field in the entire world.
I think the SI article does not show him the respect it should have.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 20, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

You're begging the question

Assuming there’s nothing suspicious.

Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...

by TheFigurehead on Jan 21, 2011 3:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Egh, perhaps.

It is just that how Catlin is being presented in the article is really quite contradictory to everything you can find regarding him.

I think they ran this article right up to the edge of defimation.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 21, 2011 6:55 AM EST up reply actions  

See the CN article about hemassist:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/experts-call-armstrong-hemassist-connection-unlikely

The doc quoted in the SI article “clarifies” it isn’t likely to have been used:

“I could not imagine a cyclist using HemAssist or any HBOC day after day … I would imagine that such a product would be used selectively for a most difficult mountain stage,” he told AP. “But of course,” he added, “I don’t believe these products were ever used.”

To me, it sounds perfect for those selective days (or that all too important TT stage)…

"I briefly played on a soccer team where we took great joy yelling 'come on fuschia'" by Willj

by JustJoshinYa on Jan 20, 2011 10:56 PM EST reply actions  

my main problem with that article

is that it assumes that cyclists wouldn’t use something that didn’t work, which, in my mind at least, has been proven wrong by that dude caught with the fake hemassist. the dude’s a doctor, not someone who knows much about doping. how would he know what cyclists would be willing to try, based on their much smaller knowledge of HBOCs. on top of that it goes from “athletes ever used HemAssist” to “using HemAssist or any HBOC day after day.” those are two very different statements in my mind.

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 21, 2011 8:42 AM EST up reply actions  

yep

We have plenty of examples of doctors saying, well, why would they use that substance, it wouldn’t work. When, the athletes are using it – and maybe it’s working in combination with something else, maybe it’s not working, but they believe it does.

So, the “it doesn’t work” argument doesn’t do much for me.

by Jen See on Jan 21, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Arne Baker included a sizable section in his defense of Landis

devoted to “proving” that there was little to no evidence to support the notion that using testosterone would aid a cyclist’s recovery.

Then Joe Papp testified. Then . . . Then . . . .

But this brings up another problem: if the substance DOES not really aid performance AND is not harmful, why the hell is it banned?

by R Mc on Jan 21, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Or, alternatively

How accurate are these assertions that it has no effect?

by Jen See on Jan 21, 2011 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

These are not assertions, they were conclusions resulting from scientific testing of a small group of human subjects.
Though not large eough to totaly confirm one way or the other, the tests did show a high likelyhood that very little was gained when compared to the control group.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 21, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions  

they weren't testing performance enhancement though

they were testing how well it could keep people who’ve lost a lot of blood alive, iirc. i doubt they did tests on people with a normal amount of blood to see if it got more oxygen to their muscles?

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 22, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

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