Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Devils Beat Rangers, Head To Stanley Cup Finals

Kimmage On Air - Kicks Contador, Blasts Schleck and Calls-out Roche


Paul Kimmage was on Irish radio last night and for those of you who give a damn, you should be able to listen back here (It should be in Part 2 of Thursday's show).

The short version is he played dumb on the confusion surrounding the announcement of the proposed suspension, said Alberto Contador's promised resignation would be no bad thing, slammed Andy Schleck for saying he would still think of Contador as the winner of the 2010 Tour and called on Nicolas Roche to fill two pages of the Sunday Indo with a condemnation of cheats like Conty.

Comment 102 comments  |  2 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

More from Podium Cafe

The Session: Sweet Anticipation

Feb 2012 by Jen See - 4 comments

The Session: Days of the Dope

Feb 2012 by Jen See - 85 comments

Contador Press Conference: Analysis

Feb 2012 by Jen See - 234 comments

Contador banned for two years

Feb 2012 by Jens - 586 comments

Inside The Peloton, by Nicolas Roche

Jan 2012 by fmk - 55 comments

Comments

Display:

WOW!

quite an outspoken opinion, but I can agree with most things he yells says.
However I don’t agree when he says all riders should start pointing fingers to the dopers because:
- there still are false positives, so some precaution is necessary
- as a small fish in the sea of cycling you don’t want to be too impopular if you haven’t got a contract for next year yet. Chances are Riis won’t offer Nick Roche a contract if he starts calling names and insulting Riis, Contador and others, as Kimmage suggests

by broerie on Jan 28, 2011 8:12 AM EST reply actions  

Agree, Kimmage's advice (and style) is not something to follow.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 28, 2011 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

+2

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 28, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

What would you prefer? Someone meek and subservient who tells us all is well and there’s nothing to worry about, and look, there’s a shiny bicyle, isn’t it pretty?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 29, 2011 8:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Did I say they were the only two?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Come off it.

The obvious implication of the way you responded was that the ‘other’ option to the Kimmage approach is ‘meek and subservient’ and so forth.

If you’re going to toss rhetorical bombs, at least stop being disingenuous when you get called on it.

by Ed K on Jan 31, 2011 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh Ed, I love it when you get angry

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Feb 1, 2011 6:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Touche...

…I think you do a lot of fabulous and really valuable stuff, but sometimes your argumentative tactics annoy the shit out of me. But I get over it, as, I hope, do you.

by Ed K on Feb 1, 2011 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Geez,

can I not have a fucking option in the middle somewhere? Even if I believed in his cause I wouldn’t get behind a hothead like Kimmage. I think advocacy work is best handled by intelligent, well-spoken, level headed people who’ve always got their shit together. I’m not one of those people, which is why I appreciate the ones that are out there.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 29, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure you can have an opinion. So can he.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:06 AM EST up reply actions  

There is a reason – a good one – for Roche being the one called out here. See below.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 29, 2011 8:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Paul's mum must be so sad that he didn't pursue a career in diplomacy

He would have had such a bright future.

My bags are guaranteed sand-free.

by Jens on Jan 28, 2011 8:40 AM EST reply actions  

I think he is saying all the right things,

but perhaps it comes across rather “direct”.

by Uphill on Jan 28, 2011 8:56 AM EST reply actions  

He’s saying all the things that other journos are afraid to say. Kimmage isn’t a cycling journalist anymore, he’s a sports journalist, so he doesn’t need to, or want to, stay onside with all of cycling’s major players in order to be granted interviews.

http://www.irishpeloton.com/

by irishpeloton on Jan 28, 2011 11:02 AM EST reply actions  

Fully agree : Its so annoying reading/listening to the usual cycling commentators & “journos” trying to appease Bert and larry. A few recent examples:
Rupert Guiness’s interview with LA- thousands of clean drug tests?
Phil and Paul sycophantic commentary during TDU -what about the elephants on road ie SI story.
The whole Contador story is so concocted yet no one in any of these primary roles calls it.
Kimmage knows how the Omerta works from personal experience (make sure you read “Rough Ride” to get his perspective) and unless riders who are clean break it nothing will change.

"More accurately, the principle of Occam’s Razor recommends selecting the competing hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions"

by Clubrider on Jan 29, 2011 7:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, yes, yes...

wait, Roche? What did he do to be called on for Kimmage duty? Because he’s half-Irish? Because his dad won the Tour?

There are people in the sport who have a duty to speak proactively — managers, patrons — but not guys like Roche. Who else has a duty to rail against the cheats? Maxime Monfort? Thomas Lofkvist? Tejay Van Garderen? Sorry, these guys can speak out if they want, but Kimmage is crazy if he thinks they have some duty to do so.

Wait, it’s Kimmage, why bother…?

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 28, 2011 11:37 AM EST reply actions  

Calling out Roche younger

is like calling out a younger Medici to comment upon the corruption of Renaissance papal elections.

It’s a rhetorical gesture designed to expose the complicity of the target, not actually produce dialogue.

by R Mc on Jan 28, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, a demonstration of the line in the sand - like where no one is big enough to call out

the US military multi-national industrial complex, even just the obvious stuff, like the graft contracts and the eighth-ass disingenuous ‘nation building,’ all as collateral consequence of the Energy Templar Quest…

Bikes!

Not sure the need to insult Kimmage, who is one of us. Kinda the same as insulting Greg Lemond, which is no longer so easy or so in fashion.

If new Vino pledge recruit Roman Kreuziger wins the TDF this year, (and he might) what will be the main contributing factor to his talent jump?

Answer: He matured!

by rubesANdbabes on Jan 28, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Kimmage

Constantly overplays his hand, possibly out of sincerity, possibly to get attention. My point is you need the right guy to perform these tasks — military industrial complex? That was Eisenhower’s, not some undersecretary.

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 28, 2011 2:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Meant to say..

Medici Alchemy Context,

No, chrisdot – this is the guy calling out Lance, just like you.

Asking the situation to go away is not realistic.

We are here.

by rubesANdbabes on Jan 28, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

A small favor?

His name is Chris, not chrisdot.

Er, anyway, carry on.

by Jen See on Jan 28, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

OK

But I’m not telling Kimmage to shush. I’m just saying he should let Roche find his own voice.

If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH

by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 28, 2011 9:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Roche has found his own voice. The Indo diaires have been running quite some years now. Kimmage is calling on him to actually use that voice. To show he’s not hiding behind omerta with the others.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 29, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions  

but is that really fair to ask of him?

Just because he has a column doesn’t mean we should expect him to do something that could harm his career.

by Nomer on Jan 29, 2011 2:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, it is fair.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:07 AM EST up reply actions  

It is fair to ask, and it is also fair for him to make a decision he feels to be the best for him.

'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia

by bought with blood on Jan 31, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Kimmage has made a career out of overplaying his hand

and having exceptional timing, the kind you can’t teach or plan. I wouldn’t expect him to become any less confrontational as he gains traction.

by Nomer on Jan 29, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions  

is like calling out a younger Medici to comment upon the corruption of Renaissance papal elections.

ha, impressive analogy

moo

by Willj on Jan 28, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Also cos it was on radio in Ireland - so mentioning Irish cyclists does make sense

Less picking a rider at random, more picking a rider the listeners might have heard of?

by Sarah Connolly on Jan 28, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Except Kimmage has a history with Roche Sr

so it’s a pretty sure bet he didn’t just pick the name people know. He didn’t call out Dan Martin.

My bags are guaranteed sand-free.

by Jens on Jan 28, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, yeah, that too

But it’s not like it doesn’t have other reasons too

Not saying I agree with him btw, just answering the “why single out Nic Roche?” Q

by Sarah Connolly on Jan 28, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, history with Pappa Roche (though I really do think the animus comes more from Roche than Kimmage) but PK has generally been very nice about Roche Jnr.

He didn’t call out Dan Martin cause DM has practically zero profile over here. Ditto Brameier. Ditto Deignan. Ditto the Posties. They don’t have cols in the Indo.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 29, 2011 8:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Right both times. Irish journo, Irish radio, Irish rider. Get the context right before climbing up on any high horses. Roche, through his diaries in the Indo and interviews on RTE, Newstalk and Setanta, has appointed himself the spokesman for Irish cycling today. That profile requires he speak on the doping issue.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 29, 2011 8:02 AM EST up reply actions  

Roche? What did he do to be called on for Kimmage duty? Because he’s half-Irish? Because his dad won the Tour?

Because of his newspaper columns Chris.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 29, 2011 8:14 AM EST up reply actions  

And why aren't the newspaper columns enough?

Roche has a job already, and it’s riding his bike, which he has a lot of talent for. It takes a lot of time and energy to do the kind of advocacy work effectively that Kimmage is calling out on our boy to do. Sure it’s a worthy cause, but nobody needs to call him out to do more.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 29, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Of Deignan, Martin and Rohe, the latter is arguably the least successful, but becuase of his media exposure, has the higher profile. He wants that profile. Doping comes with cycling and Roche can’t hide from it. If he wants to be the face and voice of Irish cycling, then he needs to address cycling as it is, a sport in which doping is a major issue. Anything less is a lie. Expressing his opinion on Contador would take no more time than it did for him to express an opinion on Gadret, or that Italian he got into a spat with.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:10 AM EST up reply actions  

When did the face and voice of Irish Cycling require this?

I don’t recall any other face & voice of Irish Cycling be ‘required’ to make a stand on anything.

Last I checked Sean Kelly has a whole ‘Cycling Acadamy’

He’s got nothing on his site about how he is doing anything to make the sport he loves clean.
Why are you and Kimmage demanding some young guy to raise above a level you don’t even require arguably the greatest in Irish Cycling history to do?

I find it all disingenuous.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 31, 2011 6:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Because Roche wants the good side of anti-doping without the hard side. That’s why he’s happy to be a Bike Pure rider.

Roche has set himself up for this call out. If he shirks it … well he’ll be just like a few others who ride the Bike Pure label.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe he just wants to ‘lead by example’ and not ‘by the soap box’.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 31, 2011 6:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Then climb down off the soap box and give the columns to someone who’ll talk about the reality of cycling, not the myth.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m not on a soap box, I’m trying to point out that you, and Kimmage, and many others are putting Roche Jr. in a sort of ‘Messiah Complex’ for Irish Cycling.

It is totally ludicrous that you, and many others seem to feel it is totally reasnable to expect him to be anything more then just who he is.

Which in truth is a top 15 GC guy, who is affable; and who just so happens to have a family pedigree.

Maybe everyone could just let the guy grow into himself a bit more.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 31, 2011 6:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m not on a soap box,

Never said you were. Said Roche was.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:45 AM EST up reply actions  

BTW re the Messiah Complex. He’s not. He’s just a naughty boy.

Maybe he should stop wearing that Lacoix cross of his though, just to avoid the confusion … :)

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Still don't get what you want of Roche

or what you think it will accomplish. So he uses his soap box to call out riders who have been popped for something? The debate continues here about whether Contador is guilty or not, if the rule is right or wrong, I hardly see where it would be intelligent for Roche to speak on the matter. Unless he has first hand knowledge with some backable proof on a rider/riders then it is best not to point the finger. We all know doping is prevalent, we don’t need Roche confirming that unless he really has something substantive to add that would get riders convicted or investigated.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 31, 2011 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree

Put up or shut up.
Shit or get off the pot.
Pull or get dropped.

But this is from our perspective, DDIFP in-the-know that we are. His column readers might get something out of it (…a dislike of pro cycling as it is…? D’oh!)

by tedvdw on Jan 31, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I would like to see Roche getting angry. Getting angry at the people above him who are there because they cheat.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Feb 1, 2011 6:08 AM EST up reply actions  

But . . .

wouldn’t the McQuaid’s take him off their x-mas card list?

by R Mc on Feb 1, 2011 9:27 AM EST up reply actions  

True. Don’t want to spoil their pretty image of the sport now, do we.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Feb 2, 2011 5:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Anger leads to hate...

hate leads to fear,
fear leads to the dark side.

You don’t really want Roche to end up on the dark side now do you?

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Feb 1, 2011 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

But . . . it was love that led anakin to walk away from his true role

(I know, I just watched it on Cartoon Network a couple nights ago . . .)

He SHOULD have been the one to keep the forces in balance.

What were we talking about?

by R Mc on Feb 1, 2011 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Don't worry, we're totally on topic.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Feb 1, 2011 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Have you read Bad Blood. Whittle’s book? His choice between Armstrong and Kimmage, the Force and the Dark Side, Darth Vader and Obi-Wan? He never actually says which is which mind you. And he does end up opting for the Third Way, adoration at the feet of St David.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Feb 2, 2011 5:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Haven't read that.

I just got a copy of “Rough Ride” which I’m about to start reading.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Feb 2, 2011 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Possibly because

the general attitude in cycling tends to be “we can’t change the past so no need to harp on about it, better to make sure the sport makes better choices in the future”. Kelly is widely regarded as a lost cause, a relic from another era. Expecting him to change his message is probably futile. A young rider like Roche, who is supposed to represent the future of the sport is another matter though.

My bags are guaranteed sand-free.

by Jens on Jan 31, 2011 6:29 AM EST up reply actions  

He has has a whole ‘Cycling Acadamy’!!!

This is not the past, this is right now!
Why is no one expecting SK to step up and represent?

Hell, even Riis has made a stronger position on doping then SK, and we all know he was as dirty as one could get.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 31, 2011 6:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Because SK doesn’t support Bike Pure and claim to be racing clean. NR does.

Yes, I would like SK to admit to the past. But few of them do. Even Fignon hardly only barely did it.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Personally, I don’t care if anyone admits the past; but if they’re now running a team then that team should have a real system in place to ensure and document it is doing what is possible to have clean riders, as well as promote that as part of the team philosophy.

Of course, the best example is JV’s team.
We all know JV had a bit of a shady race career, but his philophy for his team with regards to anti-doping is really at the cutting edge of almost any sport.

SK is not doing, or at least not telling he is doing, anything like that with his team.
For some reason, that seems to be OK.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 31, 2011 6:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I know very little of An Post and the CA since they are small and off my radar

But I do agree that with a history like SK (like Riis, JV and all the rest we know or have reason to assume were doping in their active careers) he should be required to have a clearer stance on doping on his team. But that’s a bit of a different matter than Roche’s columns.

Personally I think his commentary role is more similar to Roche, it is pathetic that TV stations like Eurosport let him and Virenque represent them without adressing their own pasts but there the fault lies with their employers. If they hire the dinosaurs they know damn well what they get.

My bags are guaranteed sand-free.

by Jens on Jan 31, 2011 8:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed on SK’s TV role, but hell, look what he’s up against, those muppets Phil ‘n’ Paul who dodge the doping issue even quicker than SK does.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Feb 1, 2011 5:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Am not sure where you’re getting that SKTA doesn’t have some form of anti-doping policy.

Personally I see little or no difference between SK and JV. They’ve both more or less acknowledged they doped, they both try to dpdge the bullet when directly questioned.

And come on, it’s not just SK and JV. Where’s Andersen talking about his past? Where are all the other team personnel at all the other teams talking about their pasts? Yes, an SA-style truth and reconciliation love in would be great, where everyone could confess. But let’s be real – that ain’t gonna ahpepn.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Feb 1, 2011 5:18 AM EST up reply actions  

But I'm not talking about the past . . . .

 . . . . I’m talking about right now and what they are doing right now.

JV pays for, and has, quite possibly the best anti-doping controls in this sport, or perhaps any sport.

SK has nothing, and no position on this for his team.

To me, what people are doing right now is more important then their sins of the past and if they publicly admit to them.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Feb 1, 2011 8:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes JV pays for an anti-doping prog. Some see it as nothing more than a media shield. Some claim it is the key to a doping programme that beats the passport.

You say that SK has nothing – evidence? Maybe he has a zero tolerance policy, they’re all the rage.

BTW why are you singling SKTA out? Why not the Leopards or Team Sky? SKTA is actually a Belgian team. It has little or no profile over here. It’s two main graduates have been Lloyd and Fleeman (Brammeier this year, I know). And I think I’ve been clear as to whether I think SK doped or not.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Feb 2, 2011 5:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe he's not that diplomatic in what he says, but a lot of what he says is similar to what a lot of us say.

I especially agree with the “good riddance” to him bit regarding Bert’s threat to quit. I also sort of relate to what he says about Schleck still referring to Bert as the winner of the Tour…but I don’t know if Nicholas Roche really needs to come out blasting. I just think Kimmage wishes someone would say something – I kinda wish it too. I wish some big names would step up and tell Bert to quit or take the year quietly. Do I think it will happen – no way! But, I wish it would…

"I briefly played on a soccer team where we took great joy yelling 'come on fuschia'" by Willj

by JustJoshinYa on Jan 28, 2011 12:46 PM EST reply actions  

who knows

maybe some big names are telling him that in private. although i doubt it.

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 28, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

While I'm all for the breakdown of Omerta and a cultural shift in the attitude...

…of riders toward doping, I’m also against witch hunts. Somehow, I always feel as if Kimmage and Lemond would be fine with a little witch hunting, which I think is where my unease comes from.

Also, as Chris said, sometimes it’s hard to decide how much of this is a plea for attention…

by Ed K on Jan 28, 2011 3:55 PM EST reply actions  

Every single post ever made here is a plea for attention.

Stealing the Tour is not Racketeering – that is as far as I take the witch hunt idea, until you get to Italy, and the cops make everyone shiver in the hallway all night after the TTT.

Projecting a mindset on toLemond and Kimmage, the messengers, fair enough, but you are still projecting a mindset onto the messengers – right out of the Lance defender book.

by rubesANdbabes on Jan 28, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

The part of your comment that is in bold

stopped me in my tracks, to the point where I didn’t read the rest of your comment.

If it is self-referential, my sympathies (genuinely),
If was aimed at someone in particular, then shame on you.
It was aimed at all of of the registered users and readers of the site – then cheers for that…

by andrewp on Jan 28, 2011 6:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry sorry, I didn't bold anything - that was my use of the title(?) line.

And 100% yes, a shout out – no attack.

My whole reply is just going over the finer points of hating biking doping – and referring to the assertion that Greg and Kimmage are mainly / merely / partially / sometimes / sorta media mongers.

Kimmage, a media figure, should not be considered an ‘unserious person’ for stirring up S in bike racing. The question of ‘who gets to speak’ is usually 70% BS in every situation, and in the case of bike racing and Kimmage’s right to speak…no, people wanting more clean bike racing please don’t dismiss this guy. Sad.

Greg Lemond would never be a party to women burning at the stake. No.

by rubesANdbabes on Jan 28, 2011 7:14 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Sometimes you gotta be Thersites.

(and, living in good ol’ super conservative Abilene, believe me that I understand the tyranny of politeness . . .)

by R Mc on Jan 28, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

"witch hunting" is obviously being used metaphorically.

If you read a lot of my other posts here, you know quite well that I have no sympathy for LA and other prominent convicted and unconvicted but highly likely guilty riders.

That said, I think it’s actually fairly important that there be a clear, consistent, impartial, and, yes, limited system of dealing with the problem. At some point the past has to become the past, and judgments about it left to historians rather than judicial authorities of one sort or another. (I’m not saying we’re there with a lot of people, but I do think it has to come at some point). The fact that LA and Company complain about the lack of those things in order to set up a smokescreen to obscure the very real and mounting evidence that they were up to some very bad shit doesn’t change the fact that, in fact, there is or has been a fair bit of ad hoc making shit up as we go along going on.

As for attention. Obviously there’s difference between engaging in a discussion with others (who, obviously, you’d like to have listen to what you have to say) and the kind of more problematic behavior I was referring to. So I’m not sure what your point there really is.

by Ed K on Jan 28, 2011 9:38 PM EST up reply actions  

My point about 'atttention' is:

Why do we have to keep eating the idea that Greg Lemond, Kimmage, Jose Canseco, whoever have lived past their shelf life and are making an odious trespass on the sporting scene (for being ugly, imperfect whistleblowers, basically).

In my opinion, fans know the basics about PED use, but we are short on facts, and that’s what you get from Floyd and Jose – facts and details, with still some untrue stuff mixed in.

by rubesANdbabes on Feb 1, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I think there's a range here....

…and to be clear, I think the Kimmage who shows up in the transcript with Floyd is an amazing interviewer and doing a really mind-bogglingly good piece of journalism.

But my point earlier was, I think, similar to Sminer’s above, that there’s a way of doing this stuff that makes the point, but in a way that makes people stop listening rather than start. And that’s something you really want to avoid doing.

I really don’t know Kimmage well enough to say how often he crosses that line, but someone like Lemond, in my view, spends at least half his time over it. And for me the line is this: when you’re just throwing shit at the wall to see what’s going to stick (like making accusations based on your impression of what’s been done, or some kind of totally sketchy calculation of how much work x must have done to get up that hill, or whatever ‘data’ it is this week that shows that x must have been doped), you’re just ‘witch hunting.’ Sure, you might even be right, but the flagrant problems with the basis of your claims are going to make at least as many people who might believe you if you exercised a bit more judgement just decide that you’re not worth their time. Honestly, I’ve pretty much decided that about Lemond, because I don’t trust his judgment enough to take his claims about ‘knowing’ what’s going on seriously. Worse, it’s all so easy to wiggle out of, and so people do, and nothing changes.

What anti-doping needs, especially if the authorities running the sport are as corrupt as they seem to be, is advocates who know how to make sure that whey they speak, they’re really credible, and whose charges can’t just be easily dismissed. That is the only way you put real pressure on. When you’re reduced to grandstanding, you’ve already lost. And when you start publicly attacking the members of your own team (like Roche the younger), then I really, really wonder what is up with your perspective about which battles are worth fighting, and helpful.

by Ed K on Feb 1, 2011 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

It is always important to remember that . . .

 . . . for Kimmage, this is how the guy makes money.

He is a professional ‘muck raker’, and he does his job quit well, but just remember his motivation is in some way derived from the money he gets by keeping this topic in the news.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 29, 2011 2:24 AM EST reply actions  

Kimmage today is a well respected sportswriter and not really reliant on reporting about cycling or it's issues.

As for calling journalists that do reporting beyond just regurgitating the bike-industry pablem “muck rakers”, that is a bit sad. As in all aspects of society, inconvenient journos digging into unpleasant stories are essential, even if’s not alway pretty or dignified. In fact, if there where more of them among the cycling journos there would be less need for the loudmouthed and slightly kooky rants that Kimmage seems to resort to regularly.

My bags are guaranteed sand-free.

by Jens on Jan 29, 2011 6:12 AM EST up reply actions  

The guy wrote a book in 1990 about his time as a racer . . . .

 . . . . and so I do not consider this as investigative journalism.

As for his articles, they seem to be little more then color commentary with essentially now real investigative journalism performed.

To be clear, I don’t think he is inconvenient, I think he’s lazy and does little more then articulating in a slightly more eloquent manner then what you can read here at the PdC.

Shit, Chris and Gavia have done more aggressive journalism then Kimmage recently.

All this guy does is ‘armchair quarter’ back and tell other people to do things while he really contributes very little.
So yeah, I’d say he’s ‘muck raker’.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 29, 2011 6:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I wish to reaffirm I totally agree with you that " . . . journos digging into unpleasant stories are essential . . . "

I’m all for that.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 29, 2011 6:36 AM EST up reply actions  

He's well respected because he's good

I don’t think I’ve seen/heard him get a head of steam about anything beyond cycling. Kimmage is more than capable of being composed, analytical and persuasive.

But with doping in cycling it is his love of the sport, his intimate knowledge of the history of doping – both from personal experience as a rider and outcast (because he spat in the soup) – means he is outraged that very little has changed since 1990.

Everything he says in that interview is IMO appropriate, regardless of his tone of voice (and he knows that talking quietly and diplomatically changes nothing). Hence the challenge to Nico Roche – to use his public platform, writing for an Irish newspaper, to distance himself from the dopers. I don’t think Stephen Roche’s dirty past is a priority right now. He’d certainly want the truth to be told. However, much more pressing is that he wants it to stop among today’s riders. You can’t turn back the clock, but today’s sponsors and today’s fans need today’s riders to be clean – for their own sakes but also for the future of the sport as a whole.

And he’s right about riders needing to speak out. My first thought about Schleck and Riis still defending Contador even now indicates they are unwilling to condemn the man who broke the rules of the sport and beat them to win the Tour. The only reason I can see why this is so is because they are guilty too.

The clean riders (and there must be quite a few now, I hope) need to stop and think how not speaking out is damaging the sport. Cavendish, McEwen and the guys who didn’t want Ricco back in the peloton, where are they now? What of all the riders with the blue wristband? Do they want all of cycling to be clean? Perhaps it will mean they don’t get a job with Riis or Bruyneel but something has to change and it’s the riders who dope so it’s the riders that need to do something. Otherwise we out here on the edge of the sport are pissing in the wind.

@Ryan_Liles I think you do Kimmage a disservice to call him lazy or an armchair quarterback. I wonder what you would do if you were in his position. To say “Chris and Gavia have done more aggressive journalism then Kimmage recently” is in my opinion a childish remark, regardless of how much time and effort those two people put into running this website.

by Simon_E on Jan 29, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

just remember his motivation is in some way derived from the money he gets by keeping this topic in the news

Yup, that’s right, PK doped Bert’s steak. And fed those emails to Flandis.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 29, 2011 8:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Nothing Ryan said implied this for a moment...

…it’s possible to be critical of his approach without making claims that are ridiculous.

by Ed K on Jan 29, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Re Roche

I think some people need to step back and gain some perspective here.

Is Schleck defending Contador, still bigging him up, really what we need? On the one hand it suggests that Contador was no dirtier than Schleck, just unlickier. On the other, it shows a lack of respect for the anti-doping rules.

Is Wiggins showing his on-going man-crush for LA and slamming Flandis for breaking ranks what this sport really needs? Back to the good ol’ days of slapped backs and zipped lips? Is that what we want?

Roche has a media platform in this country. Kimmage is calling on him to use it to condemn doping. To condemn dopers. To not just equivocate and mouth platitudes, which he has done in the past, but to come out and say that the sport is better without the drug cheats.

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 29, 2011 8:20 AM EST reply actions  

I agree. I like that he's still angry about it

Because with the Sunday Times paying him to cover golf & the like, he could very easily have just shrugged & walked away. Really and truly, over in the UK, he’s much better known as a sports journo, except to cycling fans. And the amount of crap he gets (international hatred from some sections of fandom), he doesn’t actually need that for his career – as ever, his life would be a lot more easy if he shut up about doping completely.

by Sarah Connolly on Jan 29, 2011 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

(when I say sports journo

it is in the context of cycling not really having a profile here, so hasn’t been covered much – but I appreciate that in other countries “sports journo” would include cycling! Sorry!)

by Sarah Connolly on Jan 29, 2011 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't want Kimmage to shut up.

I just want him to get off his ass and actually something more then just blow smoke.
If he is actually a journalist, and not simply a color commentator, then he really should go out and get a damn story rather, then providing his 10 cent perspective on things.

If he was actually doing that, I feel he’d then stand on a much more solid ground in telling other people to publicly state a position which will totally be career affecting.

Until Kimmage gets off his duff and does some work in this decade, he is basically ‘muck raking’ blow hard.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 29, 2011 9:34 AM EST reply actions  

Like say doing an in-depth interview with one of the most notorious dopers for the Sunday edition?

Providing an alternative view of cycling.

(Or following a team he thinks is full of hot air from the inside through a 3 week race to see if their actions are as good as their word?)

My bags are guaranteed sand-free.

by Jens on Jan 29, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

No . . .

 . . . I happen to not think giving a notorious doper money for an interview would be considered investigative journalism.
In fact nothing earth shattering came from that either.

And following a team around through a three week PR event and then reporting on it is again total fluff.

What I do see is a highly profitable business from a former doper who was able to write a book and then parlay into a lucrative career as a Journo and occasionally a ‘muck raker’.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 29, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

zzzzzz………….

by Simon_E on Jan 29, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

a highly profitable business

You have got to be joking. Do you really think his seven minutes on Newstalk every two or three months is going to pay the mortgage?

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:15 AM EST up reply actions  

He’s been milking this ever since he wrote his book.

I’d say focus of doping in cycling has been really good for him and his post-racing career.

Like I said, not too much really comes out of the guy but opinated fluff.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Jan 31, 2011 6:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Fluff? Ha!

pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway

by fmk on Jan 31, 2011 6:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Yea opinionated fluff

Kimmage is just mouthing off, nothing he is ranting about is adding anything to what is taking place. The sport is doing what it can to bust the cheaters, Kimmage isn’t.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Jan 31, 2011 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think that Contador and Andy make for good villains for Paul Kimmage’s ongoing narrative.

Lance was a perfect villian of sorts, but these guys are too warm and fuzzy.

Where’s that dolphin picture again with Conti and Shleck in the Caribbeans.

by GreenJersey on Jan 29, 2011 6:55 PM EST reply actions  

But, the truth is...

Contador was probably just the unluckier one. Andy Schleck knows that

- and it’s the truth we want.

by Forstoppelse on Jan 30, 2011 2:28 PM EST reply actions  

So, point is

On fighting doping, getting Contador out of the system wouldn’t solve any of the problem that is still within the top 10-15% of the professional riders.

To clean up properly, many riders and sports directors would have to be shut out. Immediately. Since we don’t have the evidence to do that, well, the changes are gonna’ have to come gradually. Like, as we’ve seen since ‘06 and like we’ll see the next 7-10 years.

Thus, that makes Kimmage’s rant doing no good, no bad – it’s just a mildly inparticular message, indifferent in the broader aspects. Bum.

by Forstoppelse on Jan 30, 2011 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

How sure are you

that the problem is limited to the top 10-15% of professional riders?

by Le Comte on Feb 1, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Every sprint, every cobble, every mountain pass from the world of Pro Cycling

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Sorlin_small
Passo dello Stelvio - A Brief History
Unicorn_160_x_160_small
Marmottes Without Contract!

Recent FanPosts

Schermafbeelding_2012-05-09_om_14
Saturday open thread (Eurosong!)
Kelly_legs_small
Giro Stage Predictor: Stage 21
Kelly_legs_small
How time gaps in bike races work, and why breaks get caught on mountaintop finishes.
Kelly_legs_small
GIro Stage Predictor: Stage 20
Javino_small
Vlaanderen's U25 VDS: An Update and an Apology
Kelly_legs_small
Giro Stage Predictor: Stage 19
Small
Can Ryder win the Giro?
Cutenessoverload_small
Why haven't there been single-day races that resemble particularly difficult Grand Tour stages?
Bike_small
Visiting Copenhagen, any tips on renting a bike or where to ride?
Kelly_legs_small
Giro Stage Predictor: Stage 18

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Giro d'Italia Podium Cafe

Celebrate the Giro d'Italia at Podium Cafe!

Check our Giro Section for race updates, on-the-scene reports, and other hijinx.

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads
Marianne Vos tweets her collarbone x-ray!

She crashed yesterday in the Holland Hills Valkernberg Classic when a race moto got in her way (see more in the story) - but it's so very Vos-like to show us the result.  Heal-fast, Marianne!

(Photo via Vos' twitter and also on VeloNation)
cyclists - it's your fault if you get hit by a car
not quite in Dario Frigo's league . . .
Talking about women's cycling
pdc national champs ride sunday in greenville sc
Trivia time: 
1 Where's the picture shot?
2 Who's the dude riding the race bike?
3 Who's the girl riding the omafiets?

Waaay too easy for this crowd, I know.
Picture by Nieke 0562
Should I, shouldn't I? Or am I being an idiot?
Lee Rodgers Diary: A Memorable Day in Kuala Lumpur
cycle faster. do yoga. - An Evelyn Stevens video

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


Editors

Farrar_and_cafe_small Chris Fontecchio

Espresso_cup_small Jen See