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Tour de France 2012 Route Leak Screenshots

Tour de France 2012 route leak

Screen_shot_2011-10-10_at_10

Thanks to the Googler Cache Cache, here are a couple screen shots of the Tour de France 2012 route leak. Though the map still shows the 2011 course, this page apparently describes the 2012 Tour de France course. The sidebar column details the stages and below is a list of the start and finish towns.

Star-divide

According to this page, which may be a PR stunt or may be an inadvertent leak of the 2012 course, the 2012 Tour de France will include five mountain stages, of which two will be mountaintop finishes. There will be a prologue and two individual time trials. The sprinters have nine flat stages to try their luck, while four stages are "accidentales," or chances for the breakaways. Of the non-sprint stages, there will be one with an uphill finish.

If this page is correct, the mountain stages include one climb in the Vosges. The Tour organizes have a new-found love for the Jura: there are three cols in the Jura and four climbs in the Swiss Jura. The high mountain stages weight toward the Pyrénées with eleven climbs, while the Tour climbs six cols in the Alps.

There are nine new host towns for the 2012 Tour: Abbeville, Annonay Davézieux, Bellegarde-sur-Valserine, La Planche des Belles Filles, Peyragudes, Porrentruy, Samatan, Tomblaine, Visé.

The race begins in Belgium with a prologue in Liège on 30 June and ends with the traditional sprint stage on the Champs Elysées on 22 July. That bit, at least, is certain. The official annoucement for next year's race is on 18 October 2011.

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Comments

Display:

That map is still 2011 right?

Cause, uh, that’s not where Liege is. Unless the Frenchies stole it and “forgot” to inform Flanders.

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 10, 2011 2:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Indeed.

I was just thinking my geography wasn’t what it was.

"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne

by civetta on Oct 10, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh right sorry

The map is incorrect, but the information on the sidebar is 2012.

~ Gavia ~

by Jen See on Oct 10, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he's in 2009 form

Fabian Cancellara could win this.

Looks like the ASO have decided the biggest problem with the Tour was that GC guys kept winning it.

The good: more than 60km ITT, reversing the recent trend.
The bad: absolutely everything else.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 10, 2011 2:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh Urbs

It’d be ironic is Pigeons’ Fabian for TdF dreams actually turn out to be true after all this time. She’d never let us forget it.

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 10, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even Mick freaking Rogers might stand a chance on this dud.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 10, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pigeons'll be thrilled, surely

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 10, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I might actually skip half of this to watch the Tour de Pologne. That’s how bad this route is.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 10, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fabu has NO chance

He tried to keep yellow on easy Arcalis and lost over 5 minutes.

He’ll be dropped on the Croix de Fer and lose 15 minutes on the Toussuire stage

by Derek Ortt on Oct 10, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

ja

He’s not a climber. That TdS win was a combination of lack of climbs and fear of what might happen to a non-Swiss rider who overtook him.

De cross gaat out that door.

by Chris Fontecchio on Oct 10, 2011 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well usually I’d try and post a photo of a key climb. But instead: 4 cols in the Swiss Juras …. I doubt they’ll do any of the hard ones as all dead ends …. but the swiss Juras is the birthplace of Absinthe (the green fairy):

moo

by Willj on Oct 10, 2011 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Ha!

So do we have to all pray to the green fairy during the Jura stages? :D

~ Gavia ~

by Jen See on Oct 10, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes! Should be fun:

Absinthe has been portrayed as a dangerously addictive psychoactive drug.7 The chemical thujone, present in small quantities, was blamed for its alleged harmful effects. By 1915, absinthe had been banned in the United States and in most European countries including France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland

and then

A revival of absinthe began in the 1990s, when countries in the European Union began to reauthorize its manufacture and sale. As of February 2008, nearly 200 brands of absinthe were being produced in a dozen countries, most notably in France, Switzerland, Spain, and the Czech Republic.

moo

by Willj on Oct 10, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

All the climbers just circled the giro on their calendar.

"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"

by MikeyGreen on Oct 10, 2011 2:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Wiggo just messed his bibs.

I hope the flat stages are interesting and we get some bonnifications, otherwise this could be a snoozefest.

The last tour was amazing but this looks on paper to be dull. Fab, Tony or Boom takes the prologue then holds yellow to the ITT when it may or mat not change hands to another TT’er.

I hope those flat days are hard…

by Guinea on Oct 10, 2011 2:39 PM EDT reply actions  

T-Mart probably could have held his tongue on never chasing a GT overall...

because he can climb very well…and with all those TT k’s, it would be fun to watch a big TT guy fighting tooth and nail to get a top 5 overall

by Vlaanderen90 on Oct 10, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Realistically

He could take 90 seconds out of the race elite in the first ITT and probably two minutes in the second, if on top form. If he has a GREAT day, maybe even more than that (dude is 26 – who’s to say we’ve seen his best?). He could Indurain (or perhaps I should say Evans?) his way to yellow here, absolutely.

by Aly Edge on Oct 10, 2011 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

the 2011 Tour de France was possibly the best one-week stage race of the year.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 10, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Murdoch >> ASO

Besides he probably have a couple of tapes with Prudhomme’s voice on them.

by Uphill on Oct 10, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not a chance

I can’t speak about the other stages, but the French NAts were held this year in Boulogne, which is where stage 3 ends, and that is one mean nasty hill to finish on. Here’s some video from the women’s race (go to 24.30 onwards to see the road race). And here are the results from the men’s race so you can see the time gaps.

by Monty. on Oct 11, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that is the only possible finish line

in all of Bolougne?

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 11, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

As far as I remember

every way in to Boulogne involves going up and down some similar hills. Hence I guess the massive time gaps in the races. Watch the earlier bit of that video following Audrey Cordon around the TT course.

by Monty. on Oct 11, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any chance any of these stages have cobbles? I feel like the tour needs a good cobble day.

"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"

by MikeyGreen on Oct 10, 2011 2:42 PM EDT reply actions  

IF

Fabian wins it I will forgive them for a snooze-fest.Otherwise-Bah!

by Dustbunny8 on Oct 10, 2011 2:59 PM EDT reply actions  

No chance this will be a snoozfest

Classics heaven more likely

I was told there'd be no math.

by platypus on Oct 12, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good day

for programmers to send their resume to ASO.

Bad day for me to empty out my Interbike notebook… Oh well

De cross gaat out that door.

by Chris Fontecchio on Oct 10, 2011 3:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Ah... just lulling us/Wiggo into a false sense of security, maybe?

"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne

by civetta on Oct 10, 2011 3:28 PM EDT reply actions  

ONLY UPSIDE

whoops, capslock

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 10, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

capslock there was not a mistake.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 10, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I prefer a SHORT TTT – fun but not too meaningful GC wise

moo

by Willj on Oct 10, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, TTT's are cool

I’ll quite enjoy the world championship TTT next year. By the way, has anyone figured out whether the whole team will get to wear rainbow jerseys in TTT’s over the next year, or just the 6/8/9/whatever number of particular riders in the WC TTT?

by Aly Edge on Oct 10, 2011 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bullcrap

I think that (long) road TTTs are beautiful. I say bring back the 100 km TTT to the Olympics. But I do think TTTs are too much for stage races. Strong teams already have a huge advantage, not very useful to amplify that strength by including a (long) TTT.

"Beer helps." -- Ant1.

by tedvdw on Oct 10, 2011 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Olympics is a great idea for a longer TTT

moo

by Willj on Oct 10, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not really

Same problem as the worlds TTT for nations – an event requiring seamless teamwork, being ridden by guys who seldom if ever ride together, at least competitively.

by Aly Edge on Oct 10, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

They don't have to be top pros

Olympics is amateur hour, anyway.

"Beer helps." -- Ant1.

by tedvdw on Oct 10, 2011 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the prologue should be a TTT

The prologue is supposed to sort out a bit of a pecking order for the first few stages and what could be more honest about how the race works than that?

by platypus on Oct 11, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

So basically

the TTT is good, but only as a standalone event?

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 10, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or a 7-day stage

You could build a 7-day stage around two long TTTs and no ITT. Combine that with lots of bonification-rich flat stages and not much climbing and you’d have an interesting and different race.

Good option for a flat country trying to generate interest in a short stage race. How about Eneco?

by po8crg on Oct 10, 2011 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

two long TTTs and five flat stages with lots of bonifications?

“Interesting” is probably the last word I’d use to describe that. Bob Stapleton and Dave Brailsford probably love the idea though.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 10, 2011 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, so I said "different"

But if you don’t have the option of hills, how else do you make a seven-day stage interesting?

OK, cobbles, I suppose.

by po8crg on Oct 10, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wind turbines! Helicopters! Let’s generate some crosswinds!

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 11, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like TTT's

They provide more “generalisation” to a GC contender. In my books, a GC winner should not be someone who is only excellant at climbing, or time-trialling etc etc but mediocre in other field. For two examples (extremes): Rodriguez and T.Martin. In a Grand Tour, a TTT is another thing for the eventual Winner to navigate, another obstacle, another feather to put in the cap.

In the same way, I don’t mind cobblestones being in the race either, so I view whinging about that (which we will see rise to bigger than ’09 proportions) in a dim light.

by RollinRollinRolland on Oct 11, 2011 5:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

In a Grand Tour, a TTT is another thing for the eventual Winner to navigate,

So he should be good at having decent teammates? Or good at having a wealthy boss who can buy him the right teammates?

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 11, 2011 6:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cycling is a team sport, so yes, having good team mates is part of it

It’s just one more aspect someone who wants to win needs to consider.

Did Contador have good team-mates at Astana? Do you really think Cadel’s victory this year came off the back of a wealthy benefactor buying team-mates? Sure BMC were a good team but you can not expect that a wealthy boss with a blank cheque would chase after the likes of Schar and Morabito to create an awesome team.

by RollinRollinRolland on Oct 11, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes Contador did have good teammates at Astana...the last TTT he did with them a the Tour

was with Armstrong, Horner, Leipheimer, Klöden, and Popovych…insanely strong TTT squad

The TTT course was short and pretty much purposely made to limit time gaps…but when you institute them every year or make them 70km affairs, your basically handing victories to teams that focus on the TT/TTT…yeah, cycling has a team aspect to it but don’t handicap teams like lower budget teams because they can’t afford to give everyone a TT bike or sign a few TT studs

by Vlaanderen90 on Oct 11, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

there's an answer to part of that:

remove time trial bikes from grand tours.

by R Mc on Oct 11, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now that, I’m all for.

Teammates are already enough of the equation, without making a rider’s GC ambitions hinge on whether Nicki Sørensen or Miguel Minguez can hold on in a time trial.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 11, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really like both of those ideas...

Have them ride 2 semi-long (~40k) TTs…one that is hillier and a flatter/rolling one

then have them ride standard road bikes with clip-ons…though the sponsors would be flipping out over that

by Vlaanderen90 on Oct 11, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

bah clip-ons

bah aero helmets.

possibly . . . allow aero-wheels.

You wanna rein in team budgets? Allow each rider 2 bikes per GT. Maybe make an exception if a rider breaks a frame.

by R Mc on Oct 12, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Won't matter much

The good TTists will still be faster than the rest.

Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco

by SpunOut on Oct 13, 2011 6:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

horner wasn't on the astana tdf team in 2009

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Oct 11, 2011 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can't afford to give everyone a TT bike?

Should they really be in the Tour then?

Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco

by SpunOut on Oct 13, 2011 6:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Those are called pursuits

Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco

by SpunOut on Oct 13, 2011 5:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

If this is true

Some ASO employee will have had a very bad day at the office. L’ouch!

Me like bike, no?

by Lopex on Oct 10, 2011 3:56 PM EDT reply actions  

me thinks it's a bad day out of an office after this one.

OR they released this to hear if it will float and the real course will be announced and be a doozy.

by JustJoshinYa on Oct 10, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sure this will be the course...I saw rumors of ASO wanting to show off the medium mountains next year

so they won’t be doing insane Giro amounts of climbing…though I’d love to see them get some tough finishes for flatter days

by Vlaanderen90 on Oct 10, 2011 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

what ASO needs to do,

in my arrogant DDIFP-opinion

is to figure out a way to make the GC guys race the middle climbs and not just the last one.

The Alps rocked this year cuz of that.

by R Mc on Oct 10, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

Alpe d’Huez was the best day of Grand Tour racing this year.

by Aly Edge on Oct 10, 2011 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

better than Val di Fassa?!

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 10, 2011 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Personally, I thought the Tour was a huge letdown this year. By the time we got to the interesting stages, I’d had enough and just wanted it to be over. Contador attacking 90km out was just him trying to put the race out of its misery sooner.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 10, 2011 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Better than Nieve's death march through the Dolomites

I’m not saying he and Garzelli weren’t warriors, but those performances, irrespective of who wound up giving them, were pretty much foregone conclusions. The riders made Alpe d’Huez interesting. If you disagree, cool.

by Aly Edge on Oct 11, 2011 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, and I thought it was possibly the best Tour in recent history because many of the stages were essentially great for one day racers instead of Sprint, or Mountain Stage specialists.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Oct 11, 2011 5:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Only minor disappointment was a passively raced Pyrenées but the Alps made up for it in spades. Hard to expect the 100% perfect 21 stage TdF. (And we did get a great side-story with the surprise french GC performances when some of the big GC battles were lacking)

by Jens on Oct 11, 2011 5:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

+2

The first week was surprisingly great …. and the mountain stages generally excellent.

The winner very uncertain until at least the Agnel stage

moo

by Willj on Oct 11, 2011 5:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

+many

Best TdF that I can remember.

by Uphill on Oct 11, 2011 5:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately, that says a lot about the recent quality of the Tour. After two weeks fricking Philippe Gilbert was in the top 10. Says it all about how un-challenging the first two weeks were. Take crashes and the TTT out of it and the grand total of GC action in the first 11 stages was 15 seconds – 3 gained by Evans on Mont des Alouettes, and 12 on Mur-de-Brétagne. But because there had been so little GC action, everybody still had something to protect, so you got the nervy, tense péloton that spent half its’ time crashing and eradicating contenders from the race, until we were left with the absolute bare bones of a GC field.

But then, the hot final week with great GC action does a good job of making people forget just how tedious the first week was, how awfully the Pyrenées were raced and that they put a worthless flat stage on the penultimate weekend.

The Tour de France was the best one week race of the year. But Prudhomme got what he wanted – a final week showdown (because he guaranteed no action in weeks 1 and 2), Cavendish in green and a GC contender in polka dots. Because the final week was exciting he even managed to win over most fans, because what’s most recent in the memory is strongest. Same as why many were disappointed by the Vuelta – because the final week was, from a GC point of view, stupendously disappointing.

The Giro was the only race that remembered a Grand Tour is three weeks long this year. Unfortunately, it invited a guy who made mincemeat of the field and meant it was over as a competitive endeavour after one week.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 11, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Simple answer

Grand Tours are about more than the battle for GC.

by Jens on Oct 11, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Fine, but we shouldn’t have to wait two weeks for anything to do with the battle for the GC. It’s the same as how the Giro didn’t bother putting anything after about stage 11 to make the sprinters hang around, so they didn’t. The Giro was too focused on the mountains and the GC men, so that when the GC was cleared up early there was no side battle; the Tour shoehorned the entire GC battle into one week to make room for the other battles.

The stages of the 2011 Tour weren’t the problem for me. The ridiculously lopsided pacing was.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 11, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

What is your solution?

You seem to have a complaint for everything the 2011 Grand Tours did “wrong” so how would you change them?

Personally, I think all 3 were fascinating for different reasons.

"That's like, your opinion man." - The Dude

by scrawnyguy on Oct 11, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

There were good Pyrennian stages

with a lot of repetitive climbing. The riders chose not to race those stages, however. Usually on that stage to Luz Ardiden, the attacks start on Tourmalet because it is very hard to gain time on Luz Ardiden. Last year, nobody wanted to attack until 500m to go

by Derek Ortt on Oct 11, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

My "rec" button is causing "flag" instead.

So, +1

"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."

by JFS_PGH on Oct 16, 2011 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

For sure my expectations for the GC competition

is generally pretty low, mainly as a result of lack of risk taking by the riders. Almost everybody rides the GC backwards these days, i.e. trying to avoid loosing time as we go along and then hope some luck plays into ones hand at the end.

For various reasons we had a couple of riders who were willing to take some chances at this years TdF and that made the race for me.

by Uphill on Oct 11, 2011 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just a shame we had to wait until stage 18 for them to realise that they might have left it too late.

I thought the spread of stages at the Tour was absolutely fine, but having no GC-settling stage until stage 12 meant that everybody was protecting their interests until then, resulting in a nervous and crash-prone péloton because woe betide the guy in 29th place overall loses his chance of getting into the top 15. I would have liked some kind of early GC shakeup. I would have had an ITT instead of the TTT (Definitely) and made the Super-Besse stage use the harder 2008 approach for one thing.

With regards to the Giro, that was just too much mountain focus. Either they needed to turn Nevegal into a 55km flat ITT or they needed to drop one of the unnecessary overkill MTFs like Macugnaga. Obviously, the Giro put some potentially very exciting and interesting stages in week 1 but for obvious reasons, racing took a back seat at that point, and I have no qualms with how they treated the tragedy so no problems on that point.

With regards to the Vuelta, I’m sure that pretty much any of you given a few minutes with a map could draw up some more GC-relevant stages in the north of the country than they provided. Also, in the early leaks of the route the flat procession in Madrid was replaced by a 20km ITT. I prefer this, as though the Champs-Elysées sprint may be sacrosanct, the pan-flat sprint through the capital to finish is played out (especially in races like Austria where it completely hamstrings the race route) and reeks of copying the Tour. And it makes the Vuelta look weak in comparison (you can make the convincing argument that it IS weak in comparison, of course, but they should be trying to mask that).

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 11, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

TdF

I liked the two stages before 18 which involved descents (if I recall correctly). In general I am with you on having an early stage opportunity to try and clean up the GC a little more. A TT is good or reinstate bonifications.

Giro:
Way too much survival this year and not enough racing. Cut the mountain stages down in distance and I am pretty convinced we have better action. Best action this year belonged to a couple of hilly stages.

Vuelta.
Last week’s course was just wrong overall. Waste of brilliant territory. Until then the race was pretty good.

by Uphill on Oct 11, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

give me a B.... give me an O.... give me an N...

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Oct 11, 2011 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately, that says a lot about the recent quality of the Tour. After two weeks fricking Philippe Gilbert was in the top 10. Says it all about how un-challenging the first two weeks were.

I think you lost almost the entire cycling world with this comment. Huh?

+1

by Willj on Oct 11, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gilbert is a great rider. The best in the world by a street at what he does, if not the best in the world bar none. But what he does in one day races has no bearing on whether he should be in the top 10 of a GT after two weeks, considering he hadn’t even picked up any major time in a breakaway.

At the start of the penultimate weekend, we’d had one mountain stage (which was raced very conservatively), the Aubisque stage which is sort of a mountain stage I guess, and the rest of it was a TTT, and nothing but sprints and a few of the kind of stages Gilbert was made for.

Great riding by him to be there, but on any other GT parcours of the last ten years, no way would he have been there. He can’t climb or ITT well enough for that.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 11, 2011 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

So the best cyclist in the world was 7 minutes from the leader part way through the Tour is upsetting? I just don’t see it as a bad sign … even remotely.

So many great sub-stories and Gilbert was one of them – he helped make the first week. Thor and Voeckler were obvious other stories – fabulous. But we all knew none of them could win.

I loved all three weeks …. just saying …. they were all very competitive … with very few dud stages imho.

For me, I judged the Tour on the excitingness of each stage …. 9/10 and

the suspense over who might win …. 9.5 /10

Great Tour.

…. and don’t you think Gilbert could be far closer in 2012 … if he wanted to be?

+1

by Willj on Oct 11, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

but I am biased …. I think every Giro stinks :)

+1

by Willj on Oct 11, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe, but I’d be concerned that he might have to sacrifice some of what he already is (plus of course he’ll have the defending champion as a teammate).

I really didn’t like the Tour this year. The pacing was just off for me. The stages were all fine, but there didn’t feel like any suspense early on for me, because we all knew that as long as people stayed upright (which proved a lot tougher than expected) nothing would happen until week 3 anyway. And so it was written, and so it came to pass.

Now, there were some good stories in the first two weeks, but ultimately they were all irrelevant. Prudhomme had designed them to be irrelevant, and so they were. Maybe judging it stage by stage it comes out better, but as a three week unit it was like a game of football that is 0-0 with only a few chances at full time but then both teams realise they don’t fancy penalties and you get a really exciting period of extra time.

The Tour was a one week race this year. It was the most exciting one-week race of the year (Tirreno, Suisse and Asturias the only real competition to be fair), but it was a one-week race.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 11, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

fair enough

It’s all about perceptions. I had completely different perceptions about 2011 than you. I loved the early sub-stories.

Not dis-similar to any-time any sprinter enters a GC – are Petacchi / Cav stage wins irrelevant?

But I respect your view

+1

by Willj on Oct 11, 2011 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Again,

what Jens said: " GT’s are about more than the battle for GC". You seem to be focused on only that aspect not looking at the fact that everyday is a race to be won and glory to be had.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 12, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

granted. But, to me at least, the battle for the GC is an important enough element to stage racing that it merits actually being considered at some point in the first two thirds of the race. It doesn’t need to be to the exclusion of all else! Take the 2008 Giro for example – almost all the mountain stages crammed into the final week. But you had a tough Pescocostanzo stage in stage 7 (much tougher than Super Besse was this year) and a good length ITT in stage 10, which meant that while the other riders had plenty to fight for, there was some kind of GC action to supplement it.

At the 2011 Tour, there was no less GC action than most other Tours. It’s just that it was all compressed into one week. I would have liked a more even distribution of stages; as it was it felt like everything was a warmup for the final week, and it was set up like a music festival where the GC acts were the headliners and everybody else had to finish their show before they started. I like ALL the battles to have some kind of relevance throughout a race. It was just as bad at the Giro, when all the sprinters abandoned at the halfway point because there was nothing left for them, so no point in continuing. Petacchi quit in the points jersey for goodness’ sakes. If it weren’t for the Champs Elysées I’m sure they’d have done it again at the Tour. The GC guys could have rolled into town in week 3 having left doppelgangers in the péloton for two weeks and nobody would have been any the wiser.

I’m not asking for different stages than the ones we got in 2011. There were some excellent stages. I’m asking for a more even distribution of them.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 12, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

But (spluttering)

for better or worse, the first week IS about who stays upright in the first week for GC. Has been for at least a decade.

Trying to guess which GC rider will self-eliminate through crashing is the hardest part of predicting the race . . . (now that Hamilton’s retired).

by R Mc on Oct 12, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

to elaborate:

There is nothing wrong with including sprint stages, and there is nothing wrong with including the kind of stages Gilbert excels at. Some of those stages were quite good in fact. But that he was still in the top ten after two weeks shows just how lopsided the parcours was, because it meant that no truly challenging GC stage AT ALL had taken place – as Gilbert can neither climb nor ITT well enough to be any GC threat realistically.

Gilbert’s riding in the first two weeks of the Tour saved it from being an utter processional farce, and for that he should be commended. But the route was “two weeks of jockeying for ten-fifteen seconds, then a week of mountains one after the other”. Normally I’d be all about a week of mountain stages. But it was like the first two weeks were deliberately rendered irrelevant, but for the demolition derby aspects of it, because they crammed absolutely everything into the final week, and because of how chaotic they’d made the final week, they just kind of ambled around for two weeks on a wing and a prayer that Gilbert could somehow make it worth watching, since the green jersey was the only jersey actually being fought for (as in for the victory, not just the right to wear it) in weeks 1 and 2. Mileage naturally varies on how interesting he made it.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 11, 2011 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t understand.

Perhaps you could actually suggest a GT in the last 20 years which was done in such a way to your liking.
Giro ’05 was pretty good, for example.

Again, for me I was totally into this years Tour because the two first weeks the GC contenders had to work their asses off, both mentally and physically, just to stay in the race.
Both Wiggans, LL, and Don Pistolero himself failed to do that.
The first two DNF’d & the Don never really recovered from those mistakes.

The only reason why Evans was even in the hunt on the third week was because he battled so hard the first two; which was awsome to watch.

Honestly, did you even see this years tour, or did you just read about it on CN?
Seriously, this was the first tour in so long that the race wasn’t decided in a single mountain stage.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Oct 12, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

This Tour absolutely rocked

(except the incident with the car taking out Hoogerland and Flecha)

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 12, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, they worked their asses off AT STAYING UPRIGHT for two weeks. That’s all.

Apart from crashes, you were left with 15 seconds and the TTT. That’s all the GC action in the first week and a half. Nothing.

And when we got to those key stages, one of the main reasons it was exciting was that half the GC candidates had retired hurt.

It was better than most recent Tours. But that doesn’t mean it was amazing, brilliant or that the “nothing decisive for two weeks then wall to wall mountain stages, only remembering to stick a flat stage on at the weekend” should be a template for all Tours to follow in the future.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 12, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Staying upright was not all they did

The GC contenders even contested a stage for the win. Cadel nipped AC at the line. Of course you knew that because you did actually watch the race…. right?

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 12, 2011 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course I knew that. But what was the sum total of the time gaps created?

All it needed was the Pyrenees being brought forward a bit and a 25-30km ITT instead of the TTT and we may have been golden.

I like the idea that I must not have seen the race because I’m not in love with it. It was still one of the better TdFs I’ve seen recently. I just didn’t enjoy it as much as most, and hated the pacing that made it feel like it was all rather unimportant since it was all going to come down to one week anyway.

As I said before, it was the best one-week race of the year. But it was a one-week race.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 13, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're right

Shouldn’t remark that you didn’t watch because you didn’t love it all. We’re just viewing the race with different mind-set, I so thoroughly enjoyed it I can’t begin nickpicking.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 13, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

That would be a very convincing argument,

If I were a computer or a time clock. As someone who enjoys watching the actual riding process and the riders, your laser-like focus on the time gaps is not doing much for me, frankly. Not saying that it can’t be the key to your enjoyment, of course. Such things are personal. Sorry you had some GT’s this season that you hated, but at the same time, glad that I had not one but three that I really enjoyed.

"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."

by JFS_PGH on Oct 16, 2011 8:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I did watch the race, and commented during the race that I did not like this years storyline.
The storyline I saw was, that this edition was all about staying upright, and that is not good imo.
When half or 2/3 of the GC contenders are taken out by crashes in the first week and the riders are racing with what I saw as recklessness, it is not a good race, again in my opinion, and then the route may be the best in a lot of years, but if the riders make it all about staying upright then I do not like it.

by LittleOldLady on Oct 14, 2011 6:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's just one part of the storyline

Crashes happen, sometimes a lot of crashes happen. It sucks, I don’t like it either. But to then say the Tour was “all about staying upright” is not an opinion, it’s just a false statement.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 14, 2011 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

"tedious" first week?

obviously we weren’t watching the same way . . .

by R Mc on Oct 12, 2011 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Best Tour that I've seen

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 12, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Plus making it less hard so that riders will come

who are focussing on the Olympics. Evans has already said his focus next year is the Olympics.

by platypus on Oct 11, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good point.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Oct 12, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also ASO wants the best riders all year to be competing for the win at the tour

Prudhomme has said this several times, he wants to make it far more difficult for those who don’t race year round to win. Those who aren’t used to fighting in the peleton and escaping will just crash out. We are going to see a lot more of the same type of racing as the first week this year. The teams will just have to adjust.

I was told there'd be no math.

by platypus on Oct 12, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Roger that- Andy will not have a happyface with 90K of ITT to suffer through....

So if he wants to protect (or improve) his TdF podium spot he either:

Finally commits to fundamentally re-thinking his ITT and his prep (recon etc)
Finally commits to descending better and/or handling his bike better
Finally commits to winning a stage race to bring some tactical nous to the game.

…because he damn sure is gonna lose time in those ITTs and will need to make up time somewhere, as this route seems to not be quite as difficult as others in the past (relatively speaking) in terms of high mountain finishes…

or, he makes the 2012 Giro his target for that elusive first stage race win…

Good luck with that…

Good rider, and now he has the TdF experience in Bruyneel, so he should be off and running…

(Provided he is not twisting himself in knots looking behind him for Franck)

by Doctornurse on Oct 10, 2011 5:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Or start training for 2013 when the race will be more mountainous after everyone complains when a TT specialist wins in 2012.

"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"

by MikeyGreen on Oct 10, 2011 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Giro actually makes sense

He should be about as motivated as Jen See for this year’s Tour—with this route, they both have roughly the same odds of winning.

Math Problems? Call 1-800-[(10x)(13i)2]-[sin(xy)/2.362x].

by dees ees en drama on Oct 11, 2011 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

The Giro didn't want to be outdone

so they leaked their route as well

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 10, 2011 5:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Looks like a pretty pansy ass Tour

Hip hip huzzah to two long ITT’s, but BOY do they want to make double sure the rainbow stripes get to be in the winner’s circle a lot.

by Aly Edge on Oct 10, 2011 5:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Well they probably feel the need to give him something.

Otherwise, Olympic year, hometown course, fair to middling chance of winning, might not bother turning up.

"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne

by civetta on Oct 10, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

*Home* course

though Ms Todd at least seems to live there.

"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne

by civetta on Oct 10, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

NINE sprint stages? FOURTEEN of the road stages branded as flat?

That’s…quite a ‘something.’ Maybe two or three eventually get made into ‘medium mountain’ if they’re meant to be break-friendly, but still…holy crap.

by Aly Edge on Oct 10, 2011 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

"En ligne" != sprint stage

Mur de Bretagne was en ligne.

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 10, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

The article says nine sprint stages

And the picture shows fourteen “en ligne” stages. Please reread my comment to see that I do understand the distinction ;)

by Aly Edge on Oct 10, 2011 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that's also kind of a false dichotomy

Stages aren’t either GC battlefields or Cav days. Mur de Bretagne provided for a whole 8 seconds of changes to anyone anywhere near the GC.

by Aly Edge on Oct 10, 2011 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can't have a false dichotomy

If there’s no dichotomy

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 10, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps I took too big a logical leap

You seemed to be saying that MdB was an “action~!~!~!~!” stage. When really it was really no more or less exciting than a sprint. It was four hours of nothing followed by ten minutes of somewhat interesting, followed by a few seconds of WOW THAT WAS AWESOME!

by Aly Edge on Oct 10, 2011 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

So what you are saying is

all en ligne stages are good for Vino and Cuddles?

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 10, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or Gilbert. Or, all en ligne stages SHOULD

be good for attacks.

Especially the first two or three need to encourage flat-out racing with selections. That would make for a safer tour.

A traditional sprint stage or two are good—in the second week.

by R Mc on Oct 10, 2011 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

There are nine "flat" stages, yes.

Then, there are four stages that are labelled “accidentale”, which in the normal way of things suit the breakaways. Or, alternatively, are uphill finishes. That is, they are not mountain stages, but they aren’t in the flats either.

~ Gavia ~

by Jen See on Oct 10, 2011 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

TWO MTF???!!!! TWO?????

"Weltmeister!!" Zwei mal: 2010-2011...und weiter gehts

by Phil H. on Oct 10, 2011 6:33 PM EDT reply actions  

remember, it's france, not italy.

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Oct 10, 2011 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

It’s light on mountaintop finishes this time, there are five mountain stages, but only two are uphill finishes.

~ Gavia ~

by Jen See on Oct 10, 2011 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

3 MTF

stage 7 ends with a 5.5 km climb at nearly 9% gradient. Not too dissimilar from Mt Faron.

by Derek Ortt on Oct 10, 2011 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hmm, okay

I’ll give you a 5.5 kilometer mountaintop ;)

For me, the “mountaintop” finishes in a grand tour are the, you know, big cols.

~ Gavia ~

by Jen See on Oct 11, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

What she gives, I must take away :)

2 MTF’s, 1 UHF (uphill finish?)

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 12, 2011 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm skeptical

when things sound too good to be true, they usually are.

Life is full of opportunities to shut the fuck up.

by jsallee00 on Oct 10, 2011 8:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Sounds like it

Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco

by SpunOut on Oct 13, 2011 6:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

So, all the TT specialists are looking to lose 10kg this season?

If Cancellara loses 10kg, he could podium (this would be his one and only chance to attempt to do what Indurain did.)

If Martin loses 5kg he could podium

If Wiggins can keep A. his form/B. upright, he’ll win.

Call me crazy if you like, but I believe it.

by LawrenceS on Oct 10, 2011 11:51 PM EDT reply actions  

what's 25 pounds?

I can see it now: Greatest Loser, the already skinny cyclist version.

by R Mc on Oct 11, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let's call it 20lbs

6’1 and 160 might be tough, but now’s the time to try.

Hell, Wiggins is listed at 6’3" 150, and two years ago got so thin, even thinner, that he didn’t have power.

I think people underestimate what Fabian could do in the mountains if it was his objective and he was a better climbing weight (~160-165)

by LawrenceS on Oct 11, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

The whole thing with Fabian losing weight is that he would have to shed a bunch of muscle...

and he wouldn’t be the same rider…the most he should probably do, imo, is getting down to the weight he was in for Mendrisio Worlds…but even then, that was just for a couple of days and not a GT

by Vlaanderen90 on Oct 11, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he is to win Liege and Lombardia one day, he does need to lose something.

    Does Bruyneel want him to try for the other Monuments or stick to cobbles is a better question.

by flying dog on Oct 11, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course...

but that’s the trick. Lose enough weight (muscle and body fat) and preserve as much power as possible.

If you lose more weight than the equivalent ratio of power, then you have a better power to weight ratio.

Wiggins did it. Why couldn’t Fabian or T-Mart?

Courses with two uphill finishes may only come along once in a career for these guys…. doooooooo it!

(And as a side note, I don’t care too much if there are 5 cols per stage on the other stages…. unless the climbers attack from way out, the action won’t get started until the final climb. One-two punch…. Fabian and Andy.)

by LawrenceS on Oct 11, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Bruyneel is smart, Schlecks will be riding the Giro for themselves and the TdF for Canc

My comment from the other thread:

format is tailor made for guys like Evans, Gilbert Rodriguez and Cancellara. BMC has easily the best team for this format, but Sky and Quickstep should be competitive if they can adjust. ASO want the biggest cyclists all year winning and competing in the biggest race, not once a year climbers. I don’t think the flat stages will be all that flat and if Canc is not working on his climbing and Rodriguez on his time-trialling, they are both mad.

I was told there'd be no math.

by platypus on Oct 12, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's already sunken-cheeked and low body fat.

My Swiss grandfather was fond of saying, “a starved cow doesn’t become a gazelle.” This statement was not popular with dieting female family members, but there’s an essential truth to it.

"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."

by JFS_PGH on Oct 16, 2011 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

massive gaps quite possible in Pyrenees and Toussuire

Thsoe are repetetive climbing stages. If the stage to Luchon is Abisque, Tourmalet, Azet, Peyresourde, that may produce larger gaps than the Le Grand Bornand stage from 2004. Potentially much larger if the stage is raced from a long distance as some were last year in the tour

by Derek Ortt on Oct 11, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

the days in the pyrenees being overlooked a little with all the TT debate.
11 major cols (cat 2,1,HC) in 2 (and a half at best) stages – one a MTF – and a whole subset of riders that will have to make the stages work for them before the final TT.

by andrewp on Oct 11, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Time gaps are where you find them

This year showed how much time can be available on minor little stages nobody cares about. If there are more of those stages, I imagine more riders will try to get the most out of them. They could, of course, sit back and wait for the two mountains… but then only one of them can win. I think if you have more possibility-stages (stages that you CAN gain time on, but that aren’t so obviously important that everyone races them hard), you’ll get more people competing in the GC, and more interesting green and polka competitions as well.

Besides, I don’t see what all the fuss is about MTFs. A bunch of guys pedal slowly up a hillside until Contador decides to win. The ones this year were great, because Contador wasn’t there (only his ghost) – now, we may be able to ensure that through legal means for 2012, but you can’t blame the organisers for taking insurance, as it were. [They were also great because Andy knew he had to attack because of his TT disadvantage]

They could put in 20 MTFs if they wanted. Contador would win by five years, the rest of the top ten would be settled by day three, and everybody in the race would be on drugs.

In my opinion massive MTFs should be like TTs – part of the race, sure, but they should be limited and balanced against the rest of the race. We don’t need more than 2 or 3 MTFs – we don’t need more than 1 or 2, in my opinion. No more than we need five TTs in each tour. Especially when we know who’s going to win them.

by Wastrel on Oct 11, 2011 5:13 AM EDT reply actions  

agree.

I want to see aggressive bike racing, not all tactical control all the time.

MTF’s have gotten better in recent years, but they tend to remind me of cross-country races or marathons on a bike. AND something must be done about effective crowd control on them. Too often the crowd practically neutralizes the racing by taking away the road.

by R Mc on Oct 11, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree whole-heartedtly about MTF's

They’re a part of racing and they can be enjoyable, but far from the be all and end all of bike racing. 2 or 3 in a GT is plenty. I love the somewhat uphill finishes of varying grades like we had at the Tour this year.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 11, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Screw so many MTF’s

I’d prefer some finishes with a downhill into a town just to show who can both go up and then down a mountain fast.

What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)

by Ryan_Liles on Oct 12, 2011 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sagan chasing down Cunego ftw was pretty impressive

TdS right?

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 12, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

that was awesome.

I loved that stage, though I would have preferred a different outcome ;)

~ Gavia ~

by Jen See on Oct 12, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

yep, TdS – Grosse Scheidegg. That was particularly narrow and steep.

I think the Italy stage in this years Tour was the other great downhill finish of the season (riders ending up in a driveway)

moo

by Willj on Oct 12, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

Voeckler lost considerable time that day, he went off the road a couple times. Andy lost time too, right?

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 12, 2011 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

andy lost time on stage 16, rainy descent into gap

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Oct 12, 2011 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

stages 16 and 17

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Oct 12, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

dream stage (for either Giro OR Tour):

That same Pra Martino – Pinerolo finish, but using Finestre instead of Sestrières.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 12, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

that would work

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Oct 12, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

riders make the race

The first mountain stage in 1986 in the Pyrenees was very easy with only 2 major climbs and a speed bump at the end. However, it was raced flat out from a long way out and the time gaps were MASSIVE

even larger time gaps would occur if stage 14 is raced the same way as the climbs are much harder

by Derek Ortt on Oct 11, 2011 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

And large time gaps are good cuz?

I thought it’s more intense/suspensful when the gaps are minimal

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 12, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

I actually really liked how the Pyrénées stages in this year’s Tour were a stalemate. It added tension to the race that the favorites remained so close together as the race came down to the final mountain stages in the Alps.

~ Gavia ~

by Jen See on Oct 12, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

86 was considered a great tour

primarily due to the Lemond vs Hinault battle (if you can call it a battle as Hinault WAITED for Greg on the Peyresourde) and the fact that all mountain stages, except for Puy de Dome were raced flat out for most of the stage. Race was exciting despite the 4th place Hampsten finishing nearly 20 minutes behind the lead

by Derek Ortt on Oct 12, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

the problem is, how to ensure those minimal gaps whilst still providing the excitement. You can ensure minimal gaps by providing a parcours that makes opening up time gaps really difficult (like the 2007 Vuelta), but that often leads to some very dull racing. You can get minimal gaps by providing a really tough race, but perhaps too tough so the riders race it conservatively, always in fear of what’s to come (like the 2009 Vuelta).

It’s a delicate balancing act. Trying to engineer small time gaps for a big showdown can blow up in your face (see the 2009 Tour), but equally some very tough parcours can create very small timegaps (see the 2005 Giro).

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 12, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ultimately

most of us are looking at this year’s TdF as pretty damn exciting, and you’re complaining abut it. So it just shows you can’t please everyone.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 12, 2011 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, generally on the internet

opposing points of view are discussed in a lively and stimulating exchange,
then everyone realizes that one viewpoint is most strongly supported by the evidence
and a consensus is reached

by straw dog on Oct 13, 2011 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like it better when

opposing points of view are discussed in a lively and stimulating exchange, then everyone agrees to be grown-ups and agrees to disagree. Why must there be a consensus? It’s not like we’re printing a PdC party program or something.

or are we?

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 13, 2011 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm confused

Is there another internet now that I’m not aware of?

And “consensus is reached”? So, when a viewpoint is determined to be most strongly supported, will someone let me know if I liked the Tour this year.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 13, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, you liked it.
But based on preliminary polling, the internet may not allow you to like it quite so much next year.

by straw dog on Oct 13, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Will I be able to like this year's TdF next year,

or not like next year’s TdF next year? Still confused.

"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton

by sminer on Oct 13, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

So consensus is right because it’s more strongly supported?

I mean, the evidence shows that Lady Gaga is a better musician than Leonard Cohen given that he’s performing to recoup lost money in his 70s and she’ll never need to work again.

Consensus is also different in different places. Maybe I’m swimming against the zeitgeist in not being bowled away by the 2011 Tour, but by the time we got to the bits that were really exciting, I’d got so annoyed by the way the race was going in the first half of the event and how much I was hating the horrible pacing of the completely backloaded route (especially given that they put that awful flat stage 15 on the penultimate weekend) that I wasn’t willing to give it a fair roll of the dice. As I’ve said many times, I didn’t have a problem with the stages, but I really really didn’t like the order they were in.

by UrlaubinPolen on Oct 13, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, your evidence and arguments have convinced me.

So, the consensus is, that’s not the way the internet works.

by straw dog on Oct 13, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's a difference between "I buy your argument and see your point"...

…and “you must accept the reactions of others, and make them yours.”

There are facts, there are logical arguments, and there are personal opinions. It doesn’t do to apply the same rules to each.

It’s a fact that Tony’s ass is bigger than Cadels, regardless of whether or not people on some forum reach consensus. It’s a personal opinion which rider you’d rather look at from behind, and it’s not respectful or kind to try to force a consensus. Same’s frankly true for some of the other stuff we argue about—some bits are fact, some bits are personal reactions (like enjoyment or non-enjoyment). Recognizing those things for what they are makes a better basis for arguing about the actual logical stuff.

Route builders are trying to satisfy fans with different desires, as well as riders/teams with different strengths, the people who sponsor them, and the towns which actively want (or feel owed) a start or finish, or a spot on the route. Money is no doubt in play, and also no doubt tighter than usual.

"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."

by JFS_PGH on Oct 16, 2011 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

On which planet is this concensus-building form of internet?

I might enjoy a visit. Unless you mean, “place where people gang up to enforce their personal reactions and preferences on others, who are shamed into silence.” I did junior high school once, and that was enough.

"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."

by JFS_PGH on Oct 16, 2011 8:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Leak? Or Soft Reveal

Personally, I think this was a planned move on the part of the ASO to take the sting out of much of the dissapointment echoed in these comments when they hold the big, glitzy reveal in Paris. And I think the move was brilliant.

The last five Tours have been hyped as battles on the epic mountain, with the Aubisque, Alpe d’Huez, Ventoux, Tourmalet and Galibier as the shining starts. I’m sure thing would have not gone over well if they tried to cast La Toussiere in that role this time around. Prudhomme has said they he wanted to show off some of the medium mountains this 2012…by getting this news officially-unofficially out of the way this week, there’s some hope people will focus on the climbs and course selected, rather than those that weren’t.

If only Apple had “leaked” the lack of an iPhone 5 last week before the official announcement, a lot of the bad press they recieved about what wasn’t coming may have been replaced by reviews of what was.

by jsmayer181 on Oct 11, 2011 12:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Tournai, eh?

Hm… de Ronde passes near Tournai. I wonder if we could see a little fun on that stage? I know this is more about celebrating Wallonia, but it wouldn’t kill them to slip over the border near, oh, I dunno, Geraardsbergen?

De cross gaat out that door.

by Chris Fontecchio on Oct 12, 2011 8:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Would that count as Gilbertification?

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 13, 2011 2:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Or

they’re adding in Boonifications.

De cross gaat out that door.

by Chris Fontecchio on Oct 13, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

It occurs to me

that it would be really easy to beat you at Rock-Paper-Scissors.

by straw dog on Oct 13, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pfft

Nothing beats rock.

De cross gaat out that door.

by Chris Fontecchio on Oct 13, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boonifications or Boomifications?

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 13, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or Seppuku

(Where Sep attacks and fail, I just wanted to use the word)

Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...

by TheFigurehead on Oct 13, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sep doesn't fail

he’s just benevolent enough to let others win

I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.

by tgsgirl on Oct 13, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

well played

if misguided.

De cross gaat out that door.

by Chris Fontecchio on Oct 13, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sprint-fest

Not sure why Wiggins would be happy, he’s not even riding next yr. If he is it’ll be a couple weeks of leadout duty, go for a stage win in the ITT, and prep for the Olympics. He won’t be going into the red in the Pyrenees, the Gold is more important to him.

And quite frankly he’s got no chance now (if he ever did) with Cav around.

This is made up for the lesser climbers and TT-lovers. It’s as if Prudhomme really wants to see Schleck continually come close but fail.

I used to live just outside of Brive, in Larché, and there are some pretty decent but short climbs there. Very Ardennes-esque, with 1-1.5k climbs that have up to 20% in them. But I doubt it’ll make too much difference to GC folks, or make up for a lack of climbing.
It’s also a shame that a place I’ve been to a couple times and would happily return to – Cap D’Agde – is an inevitable flat finish. And it’s Bastille day. A textbook pointless Cofidis & FdJ break, reeled in for a Cav win.
Yawn.

by ike2112 on Oct 13, 2011 9:11 AM EDT reply actions  

Except every interview he's given says he's going for Yellow

Now with Cav on his team it’ll be interesting to see how he copes when the teams having to split it’s focus but he’s definitely going to give it a go.

by randomgerbil on Oct 13, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

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