A modest VDS proposal
by kom vuelta on Nov 12, 2011 4:04 AM EST
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Dear Superted, Ursula, and other to whom it may concern,
The VDS game, and the road cycling season has been over for about a month now. During this month I've been thinking about some changes to the VDS points system. These new points systems, don't have to be adopted to the letter, or even adopted at all.
1. Make grand tour secondary jerseys worth more than their counterparts in week-long stage races. The mountain jersey in the Vuelta is worth more, I hope, than the mountain jersey in the Volta a Catalunya. The points in the mountains competitions for the Grand tours instead of having their current system of 60 40 20, the points should go 130, 90, 60, 40, 20.
2. Make a stage at the TDF worth a little more than a stage in the other grand tours. Under this system the points for a tour stage could go 110, 80, 50, 25, 10, and the other two GTs would use the current points system. However, all other classifications for grand tours would be the same for every grand tour.
3. Find some way to include the Coupe De France. The Coupe de France is a season long competition consisting of small, French, one day races, many of which, such as Tro Bro Leon, and the Tour du Finestre are already VDS races. A proposal is to make the Coupe like a cat 3 stage race, with each race in the series counting as a stage.
4. Include those small Giro classifications. Even if they're unimportant, somebody still won something in a major race, and those winnings shouldn't go unnoticed by VDS. The points for a win in one these classifications might go 40, 25, 10.
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I thought we had at least another month of talking about
boobs and traffic cones before this.
I guess it’s like Christmas, earlier every year?
Only think I would change... winning is important:
For most competitions, the win has a 30%-50% premium over 2nd place.
But not so for monuments and classics, e.g. 1st=350 2nd=300 doesn’t seem right.
Without changing the total points awarded for the race, I suggest tweaking to give more credit for the win.
Monuments 400-300-260-230-200-180-160-140-120-100… [current 350-300-275-250-225-200-175-150-125-100…]
Top Classics 275-200-175-150-130-115-100… [current 250-200-180-160-140-120-100…]
Best of Rest 170-120-90-75-60… [current 150-125-100-80-60…]
So 1 day race win 400p vs 600p for Paris yellow jersey? Sporting wise it makes no sense
imo., but comp wise this may add another dimension (I would make the slope steeper instead of more points for winner(monuments)). Otherwise agree with winner getting bigger share of points.
Also not in favour of making the competition more complex, i.e. awarding points for competitions which are not well contested (Giro stuff). Frankly, the VDS competition is already pretty difficult/complex imo.
But bear in mind that a GT winner usually ends up with ~1000 points altogether, when you add in daily jersey points, stages etc.
Understand. Still, a GC rider doesn't just pick up stage wins at will and the points
jersey is usually contested. Think its game (VDS) versus sports here. Just my two cents.
That would be insulting and disrespectful to a great cycling nation.
Instead, fine all other riders 4.8% for not being French.
What I would love to see . . .
And again, no complaints about the existing game because it is brilliant and enormous fun.
But, I would love to see a way for domestiques to be rewarded. So for a grand tour or classics winner, all the finishers on that team pick up, say 10 points or something like that. This would honor the importance of the team in the sport and change the dynamic of how we choose the one and two point riders.
Certainly Cadel’s teammates deserved points for the Tour, and would acknowledge the importance of riders like Navarro or Szmyd to their leader’s wins. Or Cav’s lead out train.
hm...
This one i kinda like.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 14, 2011 1:49 AM EST up reply actions
Isn't having your guy crash out punishment enough?
I look forward to the day that I say something stupid ~ JJY
Good point
forget it.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 14, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
I guess what I'm saying
Is that we talk so much about the team sport aspect but it’s the one thing VDS isn’t able to reflect. There were some one and two pointers who I love, and really admire the work that they do and the role they play, but I didn’t pick because I knew they would never be in a position to earn points (of course a lot of my riders didn’t earn points anyway, but that’s a different issue).
I’m not sure how hard this would be and I would never suggest anything that would create an undue burden on the noble Ted (to whom all thanks are due) but it would create a second dynamic in the picking of low pointers, instead of just taking a flyer and hoping you’ve picked a Kittlel out of extraordinary foresight or luck.
If we succeed in cloning ted, here's a way:
When you pick a rider, you have the option to specify that you pick him as a domestique.
If so, you don’t score any points that he makes for himself.
Instead, in any race that he finishes, you score 10% of any points accumulated by his team.
(I’m not sure if 10% is the right amount, but the intention is that a top domestique might score ~500)
The logistical burden, unfortunately, is ridiculously impractical even after cloning ted…
- checking the pricing every one of thousands of 1 pointers to see if they should be 2- or 4-pointers;
- finding and and enterering an accurate list of all finishers for every race
I think the only thing we could conceivably do is have a special list of 10-20 riders that can be picked as domestiques in this way. But is seems against the spirit of something-or-other to privilege certain riders this way.
Good idea
and good analysis of the obstacles. To lighten the load we could only allow ProTour riders, for instance, but you are right: we’d still have to log all finishers. That just undoable.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
Unless the UCI develops an API that we can poll for the info we need
But that will literally never happen.
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 15, 2011 6:17 AM EST up reply actions
Oy.
I hadn’t thought of it as that complicated. Sorry Ted. I think what I was envisioning is that for the races we designate (a GT, a classic, maybe some other stage races) whoever the winner is, points are awarded to all the teammates who finished that race.For the races where there is a clear designated leader like the Tour or Giro and everyone else on the team is there for that purpose, I think this works. I’m sure that’s not the most accurate way to do it or that there are flaws there, but it seemed the quickest. I’ll go away now.
Most of the star domestiques
get their chances to ride for themselves at less prestigious (or is less prominent a fairer description) races in the season. Hence the Criterium International being long known as the Jens Voigt invitational etc. They are priced for the points they score. If you really want to pick a rider who you know will score zilch then go ahead. Chances are he’ll only cost you one point anyway.
How much do you really want to make winning the game depend on...
picking the TDF winner, jersey winners, stage winners, and oh what the hell, who’s actually going to make various TdF squads…in February?
Yes, I get it, it’s the ‘most important race in cycling,’ but inflating its importance in the game vis a vis other comparable races really destroys the interest of a year long competition.
not saying increase everything for the TDF
just stages because IMO a GT GC win is an achievement that doesn’t need classification on a race specific basis, and same with all jerseys, but a stage win in the TDF, is a bit more prestigous than the Vuelta or even (sorry Phil) the Giro.
Sminer: I blame KARMA for everything.
Jens: I've heard it's a bitch
Water Girl: I heard it ran over your dogma
Ok I misread then, but I'm still not sure that the objection doesn't apply, even then.
I do agree about GT jerseys vs one week race jerseys, etc.
This.
We don’t want to make it all revolve around the Tour. We also don’t want to have to administer 30 different point categories. So we equalize the grand tours. I think the other series do too, no?
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 14, 2011 1:50 AM EST up reply actions
As much as I would love the Coupe de France thing, I don't think it should have a place here...
that would be like Gilbert getting more points for winning the World Tour classification and guys getting points for winning the UCI Europe/Asia/North America Tours, etc.
We tried to pick some French races
to give it a balanced representation. You don’t want to have 45 Belgian race days and only 20 from France lest every team be mostly Belgian. So CdF races (whichever they are, can’t recall off the top of my head) can make up the pool of Cat-6 French races, of which we have a few. But I can’t include the whole Coupe de France.
Also, bear in mind, a lot of the success of the competition is people being able to watch the races where their riders are competing. We can’t see much if any of the CdF, can we?
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 14, 2011 1:52 AM EST up reply actions
You don’t want to have 45 Belgian race days and only 20 from France lest every team be mostly Belgian
I’m sorry, I don’t understand.
I look forward to the day that I say something stupid ~ JJY
What Chris means is that we'd prefer to have 50+ Belgian race days...
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 14, 2011 3:47 AM EST up reply actions
I like any system that makes events that will have some sort of TV access …. worth watching for VDS reasons alone. The VDS has helped grow my interest far beyond GTs (which is all I ever first followed).
PS – Tour de l’Ain should be weighted higher (my standard non-sensical – but consistent – annoying rant)
moo
+1
it should become a mini grand tour
Sminer: I blame KARMA for everything.
Jens: I've heard it's a bitch
Water Girl: I heard it ran over your dogma
What about...
Increasing team size to 30 riders, to match that of an actual team.
But maybe only increase the budget to 160 points so that you’re pretty much going to have to pick 1-2 pointers.
Maybe also include a clause that everyone has to have to neo-pro’s?
by blitzer maloney on Nov 12, 2011 7:29 PM EST reply actions
Increasing team size to 30 riders, to match that of an actual team.
Most teams have fewer than 30 riders—30 is the absolute maximum and requires 2 of them to be neo-pros (28 max if no neos). The minimum for ProTeams is 23 riders.
+1--Willj
That would be cool actually
Getting to pick a team with between 23 and 30 riders, and if you pick 30 two have be to be neos. But that also sounds like a bitch to implement.
I look forward to the day that I say something stupid ~ JJY
It's still better than any system the UCI's come up with.
NTTAWW… oh wait…
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 13, 2011 7:05 AM EST up reply actions
It would also introduce even more randomness in selections and boost the luck factor in the results.
Maybe that it okay, but it would have to recognized.
It would also increase the randomness of selections and boost the luck factor in our results.
Maybe that is okay, but it would have to be recognized.
totally agree
Allowing you wo used your Points ‘Budget’ to get between 23-30 riders would add a nice effect and make it a bit more like the Real World teams.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
I do agree GT stage wins could use a slight VDS point boost.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
I agree that there’s a case for it, in terms of prestige.
A GT stage is worth way more to a rider than minor races that score 100.
With 60 GT stages in the year, I guess the problem is finding a balance for the competition, so that it’s not completely dominated by the GT points.
Maybe there’s a case for just bumping the win up from 80 to 100, so 100-50-30-20-10.
That's what I meant by slight
certainly no more than 100 ftw. Like jsallee points out, some GT stagess are barely contested and some are gifted.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
I am willing to sell my points to the person who supplies me with the most beer.
They won’t do me any good in the comp.
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 13, 2011 7:18 AM EST up reply actions
Sounds like a losing proposition to me. I'd still lose and have no beer left to drown my sorrows...
by JustJoshinYa on Nov 13, 2011 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
Wait, if you've been drinking then how did you see through my nefarious plan?
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 14, 2011 12:55 AM EST up reply actions
even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile...
by JustJoshinYa on Nov 14, 2011 6:39 AM EST up reply actions
I've still got hopes that gs will buy my points.
She’s got access to lots of good beer and competitive enough that my 3 or 4 hundred points could put her in the lead.
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 14, 2011 6:45 AM EST up reply actions
I'm nowhere near competitive enough for your points to help
I just don’t like GC cyclists enough to win VDS
I look forward to the day that I say something stupid ~ JJY
So what you're saying is you don't want to give me beer?
I don’t understand.
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 14, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm, how to put this in terms you'll understand
I look forward to the day that I say something stupid ~ JJY
But, but...
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 15, 2011 2:12 AM EST up reply actions
What I'd like to see
Does not even influence the points scale or the final outcome.
I’d like a last-12month standing which incorporates all points scored in the last 12 calender months. Just like the CQ-ranking does.
Me like bike, no?
Hm
Ted? Is this much work?
Are others interested in something like this? I’m not entirely sure why it would be interesting.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 14, 2011 1:54 AM EST up reply actions
It'd be like admitting TdU is a proper race
So not, not interested ;)
I look forward to the day that I say something stupid ~ JJY
Interesting because
It can give a better idea about how well your team is doing. If you have a team of TdF champs it is no wonder you’ll do poorly in the regular ranking till July. However, their points are included in the last 12 month version. It clearly shows your team should consistently do better than last year. At least, it does so to me. Maybe I’m just stat-crazy…
Me like bike, no?
Contador had an incredible haul at the Giro
1,550 points. He won early, often and wore pink early on and didn’t give it up. And it netted him 450 more points than Gilbert’s unprecedented Ardennes Quadruple. A ho-hum Giro (ducking) out scoring a once-in-a-generation winning streak seems wrong to me.
"In road cycling tires 25mm is the new 22mm"
-Chris Fontecchio, PdC April 2011-
maybe there should be bonus' awarded for multiple classics, multiple monuments, etc (killing Ted now)
by JustJoshinYa on Nov 13, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
We are standing under Ted’s window, and holding blanket!
Just in case.
" I like that Cav got his wins…"
JJY 10/20/11
.
Did I really say
that 25mm tires are the new 22mm tires?
We may not appreciate Contador’s Giro, but 21 days is a lot more than 3, regardless of how awesome Gilbert was.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 14, 2011 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
I do agree though that the TdF should be worth more than the other GT's
This won’t be a popular statement, but comparing the Giro to the Tour is like saying the E3 is the same as de Ronde.
"In road cycling tires 25mm is the new 22mm"
-Chris Fontecchio, PdC April 2011-
I know..
But to pick a Td F winner for the VDS, you will need to dig deep to pay for a Contador, Evans or Andy Schleck. For the other two GT’s, you just have to pick the right mid-level climby Italian or Spanish guy. Or hope someone has an early injury or pending lawsuit that may force them into the other 2 races.
"In road cycling tires 25mm is the new 22mm"
-Chris Fontecchio, PdC April 2011-
ok
we will tinker with the point scales.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 14, 2011 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
On the other two GT's versus the Tour...
this year’s Giro was supposed to be one for the ages with a million feet of climbing and an uphill 20% finish every day. It was going to be a real slug-fest between Nibali, Scarponi, J-Rod, Menchov and all the “next-level” GT riders. But then somewhere on the way to Turin, a real Tour contender showed up and the race was over after the first hill.
I just can’t say all three races have the same level of talent which is why I believe the points should be adjusted.
(meanwhile, Chris is crossing my name off the Christmas present list…)
"In road cycling tires 25mm is the new 22mm"
-Chris Fontecchio, PdC April 2011-
No
I am sending you my 2009 Conti sprinters. They still have some tread. You’re welcome.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Nov 14, 2011 1:57 AM EST up reply actions
Or a photo of the cassette on your cross bike?
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 14, 2011 3:49 AM EST up reply actions
I ain't in it for the points........er
I’m in it to learn about, follow, cheer for the riders ( yea, yea),
although I do view the scoring, [daily ], no really just following my riders, keeps me ever envolved.
points are nice, winning is nice – bottom line is….
having someone to cheer on during a race!!!!
Thanks Ted – you da man!
Soli Deo Gloria
So it's agreed. The winner
of Paris-Roubaix will receive 800 points…
"In road cycling tires 25mm is the new 22mm"
-Chris Fontecchio, PdC April 2011-
This isn't the time for a budget blowout.
Austerity measures in allocating points is the only responsible way forward in the middle of a points crisis!
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 14, 2011 6:30 AM EST up reply actions
I think we should just occupy this farm near the Koppenberg I read about.
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 14, 2011 6:46 AM EST up reply actions
I already had my pitchfork out for the riot....so, okay...I can switch to farmoccupy...
I’ll bring my huge tent (and portable generator).
by JustJoshinYa on Nov 14, 2011 7:56 AM EST up reply actions
And who in the world knows more about portable generators then JJY?
" I like that Cav got his wins…"
JJY 10/20/11
.
My fingers have almost stopped smelling like gasoline too.
by JustJoshinYa on Nov 14, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
donations to the cause
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I agree on the GT thing
The Vuelta was kinda messed up. I was happy since I had Mollema on my team, but (in my opinion) I got too many points for his efforts. He scored more points there then Cavendish, A Schleck and Voeckler in le tour.
And Contador scored 1500 in the giro, while Evans was just below 1000 in le tour. That gap is too big
The problem is
those riders didn’t check the VDS points scale before their race. Well, maybe Mollema did. Good man that.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
I think from comments above, most of which I agree with.
- GT stage wins (esp TdF) undervalued
- TdF should be at a premium to other GTs
- maybe GTs are overweighted relative to classics
I’d favor adjusting all GT stages to 100-50-30-20-10 (i.e. just boost the win up from 80),
then reduce Giro points 10% across the board and Vuelta points 20% across the board.
I seem to remember we had a referendum on this last year, that lost.
Given the arguments above, I think I’d change my vote this year.
The first pro race most of us followed was the TdF
VDS is meant to make you care about all those other races over the year. You can’t follow the Lance strategy of being competitive only in July.
by Monty. on Nov 15, 2011 5:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Stupid clumsy fingers....
What the equal GT weighting does as well (which makes the game better, if not the fairness of the ranking) is it encourages alternative strategies. It makes you think more about building a balanced team that can score every month on the calendar. I think it would make for a worse game if July-success tended to become more crucial for overall success.
I think of the basic structure of VDS as the Constitution.
Since the distinguished bearded men and women who devised it are still alive,
they may occasionally add an amendment when carefully justified.
But I fully expect that my grandchildren will risk their lives to defend it.
With very clear rules
about the right to bare arms
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Nov 15, 2011 6:21 AM EST up reply actions
thing is,
Conta dominated the Giro from very early on, whereas Cadel won it near the end – the more common scenario. Still, i wouldn’t be against the 10 and 20% reduction straw dog mentions below.
true, but the competition rate in the Tour is much higher
The first week was incontrollable (the Tour has been incontrollable since Armstrong left), and the rest of the tour was also tough as there were much less colfinishes.
But do not forget, Cadel finished at the front the entire first week. I think his win is almost as impressive, as he had top form all tour and the killer time trial showed he had a lot of strength left.
Had he beaten the Contador of the Giro? Probably not, but I don’t think the 500 vds difference or the difference between him and Cobo are fair.
Last thing: don’t get me wrong, I do think EVERY other VDS-aspect is greatly working.
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