What a difference a pro makes
by irishpeloton on Dec 11, 2011 12:44 PM EST
Email
Print
[Ed: Fantastic discussion, thanks IP!]
Eight months before the Olympic Time Trial takes place in London, Fabian Cancellara was out around Surrey doing a recon of the 44km route, as revealed in the latest Cycling Weekly magazine. When one of his entourage suggested that they skip a small part of the route, the Swiss time trial specialist replied "we’re doing it. We are riding every single metre".
This is what champions do. They recon routes in the depths of winter. They attach a helmet cam to their heads as they do it. They watch the route video over and over in the days before the event. Then when it comes to the day itself, they are able to draw on all of the extra knowledge they’ve gained, thereby giving them a crucial edge over those opponents who are not willing to go to these lengths in their pursuit of victory.
Fabian Cancellara has won the World Individual time trial title four times and he is going to London to defend the Olympic individual time trial title he won in Beijing. Cancellara is a champion.
Andy Schleck is not.
It is well-known that time trialling is Schleck’s biggest weakness as a cyclist and is the major hurdle he must leap over before he will finally win the Maillot Jaune. This year’s Tour de France had just 41 individual kilometres against the clock. This was the lowest amount since this individual discipline was introduced to the Tour in 1934. Schleck was in the yellow jersey going into the final time trial, but he still didn’t win.
The 2011 Tour de France route had been announced the previous November. Schleck knows how bad he is at time trials and yet he chose not to recon the route of the only individual time trial in the race. He was asked on T.V. after the final time trial of last year’s Tour why he had chosen not to ride the route of the stage before the Tour. Schleck responded in an aloof manner saying that he thought he had done all he could to win the Tour.
The organisers of the Tour de France, A.S.O., made it extremely easy for Tour contenders to get used to the time trial route when they decided to include the exact same route as part of the 2011 Criterium du Dauphiné in June. But Schleck didn’t even enter this race, opting to ride the Tour of Switzerland instead. Eventual Tour winner Cadel Evans rode this time trial in the Dauphiné and finished sixth. But more importantly, he was gaining information about cornering and gear selection for the Tour de France the following month.
If Schleck knows how poor his technique is at time-trialling and that this technique may cost him the Tour de France, then how could he not recon the route? How could he not record it on a helmet cam and watch it a dozen or more times before July? How could he not do everything possible to try and gain an advantage in any other way?
He has said himself: "I cannot lose the Tour again because of a time trial".
It’s not like Schleck doesn’t have the time or effort to spare to gain these slight advantages. He doesn’t focus on any other stage race other than the Tour de France. He has entered 52 stage races as a professional cyclist and he has won none of them. He’s the first rider ever to finish the Tour de France in second place three years running.
If you consider the nine biggest races in cycling (three Grand Tours, five monument classics and the Worlds road race), only two other riders have finished runner up in any of these races three years in a row. The first of these unfortunate riders was Italo Zilioli who finished second in the Giro d’Italia in 1964, 1965 and 1966. The other was Giuseppe Saronni, who finished second in Milan-San Remo between 1978 and 1980 before eventually winning the race in 1983. Schleck has now joined this unfortunate list.
However, there is a silver lining visible for Schleck in that same Cycling Weekly article which reported on Cancellara’s activities. That silver lining is Johan Bruyneel.
When discussing cyclists, the word ‘preparation’ comes laden with all sorts of negative connotations. And it is certainly no exception when mentioned in terms of how Bruyneel gets his riders ready for the Tour de France. But all doping-related undertones aside, Bruyneel knows how to prepare his star rider for the biggest race in the world.
Lance Armstrong didn’t invent the idea of reconning Tour de France stages but under Bruyneel’s tutelage he certainly helped to popularise it. For Schleck’s sake, Bruyneel needs to instill an Armstrongian level of attention to detail, something which Schleck seems alarmingly reluctant to embrace:
Lance Armstrong won the Tour de France seven times and he would have done it with or without Johan Bruyneel. I know who I am and I know what I can do. I will not change my ways of doing things according to this or that manager.
Next year’s Tour de France route contains almost 100km of individual time trialling, more than twice the amount of kilometres over which Schleck managed to concede this year’s race to Cadel Evans.
No rider has ever finished second four times in a row in one of cycling’s biggest races. But Schleck shouldn’t be worried about becoming the first. With the amount of time trial miles in the 2012 race and less mountains than in previous years, unless he adopts a more professional approach towards his preparation he’s not even going to finish on the podium.
Photo by Bryn Lennon, Getty Images Sport
338 comments
|
11 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Ouch!
Andy’s is absolutely not using his immense talent. His professional attitude reminds me of Jan Ullrich, who should/could have won more than one tour (remember this TT) He should try to win some smaller stageraces and – goddamn – work on that poor timetrial! I hope Bruyneel kicks him on that TT bike.
Great story btw!
+1
I think AS should target a different GT than the TdF — and perhaps ride the Dauphiné or TdS to win.
moo
+ 1
Yes indeed – I’ve been doing some research on TdF winners, and winning a week-long race seems like perfect prep!
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
Spartacus
he popped in sigma sports which is a regular haunt for me and my wallet. according to all who met him, he was a great guy, not up himself at all. definitely not talking about himself in the 1st person like those twatty footballers.
apparently was just ahead of him through bushy park that day
would have been fun getting horribly dropped by him!
by thebongolian on Dec 12, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
Spartacus pt 2.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/cancellara-this-season-shows-that-im-human
interesting but does anyone get the impression that Lee-O-pard wasn’t all sweetness and light? Seems like he’s a JB fan.
A little O/T but Cance seemed to forget Hincapie in that article
when he is talking about Bruyneel never having a legitimate contender for the Classics
by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 16, 2011 5:41 AM EST up reply actions
I think Andy needs to keep reading this article over and over again
until he masters it and gets the point.
It's not popular on this site to say anything that could be construed as complimentary to JB but,
I think he is likely to make a positive difference for Andy Schleck. At least I hope so.
JB certainly can't hurt Andy's chances
but next year’s TdF is just not Andy’s place to move up to the top step.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
I think he can actually
If the personalities don’t mix and JB tries a managment style that isn’t adapted to the Schlecks , Andy might end up with two poor seasons.
Andy obviously needs a new management style
unless he wants to keep not winning. Andy is the one who has to adapt and change something. Personality problems are another story, that could certainly fuck things up. But I think JB has good management abilities with different personalites and can get along whenever he wants to.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
based on andy's seperation from riis
seems like he’s management-averse.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
This.
Somehow I don’t see AS and JB seeing eye to eye. This is going to be a test of wills, and the real question is whether petulant stubbornness wins. I’d say it’s at least 50/50.
I think he might really benefit by being separated from his brother for a year or two.
I suspect that they may reinforce each other in the arrogance thing.
Never happen though.
I sometimes wonder how much of the attitude is a reaction to Fränk's brush with Puerto
You know, the money transfers, but (being charitable) not actually doing anything – I do wonder they’re now trying hard not to get sucked into that “I’ll do anything to win” and the dark paths that can take riders on…
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
I think it's more the fact the brothers seem to think they are the hottest thing in cycling
which maybe they are. But the fact they were able to throw together a team and attract such high talent shows me that they call the shots when they want to.
JB has dealt with the king of Egos, so maybe he’s fine, but I think this will be as much a test for him as the bros.
I doubt very much it has much at all to do with Frankie getting away with it from Puerto and not being suspended. But who knows? Maybe that just further feeds some superiority complex.
Indeed
If Andy is fighting JB all the time, it’s less time to think about the actual racing. Hope Bruyneel can adapt
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
In my opinion
Andy not riding the TT course didn’t change anything. The main reason to why he lost the Tour that particular day was that Cadel rode a pretty darn good TT, and Andy didn’t do more than what he usually do. A recon would’ve saved him – what, 15 seconds? – and he was more than 2.5 minutes slower that day.
Spending time on details when it’s the wrong details isn’t investing time, it’s wasting time.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
Spending time on details when it’s the wrong details isn’t investing time
What are the right details for him to spend time on? Race selection?
moo
I would thing that if you're objective is to be a GT rider,
then the discipline that you totally suck at would be exactly the right thing to spend time on,
since the chances are that you can show the biggest improvement there.
If it gets to the point where improving TT further might detract from climbing, that’s another decision… but I don’t think Andy is remotely approaching that point yet.
I really do think that he needs to improve his TT
Doing recon of TT courses is on the other hand a bit further down on the to do-list.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Dec 11, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
But it's part of the same thing, isn't it?
A recon by itself won’t have saved him, but what the recons represents – taking the ITT seriously & trying to improve – is the most important thing
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
Totally disagree
and the time he could have shaved from proper training and recon would have been much greater than 15 sec. Could he have held off Cadel that day?, I doubt it but I don’t know, it certainly could have been very close. Nevertheless, far far far from wasting time.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
15 seconds was from recon alone
I didn’t say anything about what he would have gained from proper training.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Dec 12, 2011 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
My own little experience with recon for tt courses
has shown way more advantage gains than 15 sec. I have seen and heard the same from many other riders.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
All seems part of the bigger attitude
He doesn’t want to do anything other than climb, and thinks that should be enough.
"I’m pretty disappointed, but if this is what people want to see, a race decided on a downhill," Andy Schleck said. "I don’t think that. A finish like this should not be allowed."
He doesn’t want to do anything other than climb, and thinks that should be enough.
+1
Reminded of all his whinging about the descents in this year’s Tour. They were also on the route map months before the race. EBH reconned a descent and won a stage of the Tour de France because of it.
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Dec 13, 2011 4:56 AM EST up reply actions
very true
you could probably write the same post but just substitute descending fo TT. His descending hurt him significantly in the 2011 TdF.
moo
Heck, while we're at it....
you could point out his climbing as well.
Andy finishing in 2nd was a legit finish, I’m not trying to take that away from him, but it was fortunate as well. Contador was trashed from the Giro, Wiggins crashed out… hell, Frank finished 3rd!
When I think of Andy, I think of Simoni. Although Gibo descends better.
Point is, Gibo would say “If I don’t have 7 minutes going into the final TT, I’m not happy”…. 7!!!! minutes.
He’d go onto say that he’d blow the race apart in the mountains to get that 7 minutes.
Andy didn’t. He played a canservative hand the whole race except Galibier. If he thought he could get “7” minutes (a winning gap) on one stage, he was crazy.
If you can’t TT and you can’t descend, you better blow the race apart climbing and attacking.
He didn’t do it. It’s quite fortunate he finished in 2nd, but I still think he believes it’s amazing he didn’t win!
I'm torn here
I don’t think course knowledge is nearly as big a limiting factor as … whatever it is that causes him to kinda suck at time trials most of the time (position? concentration? power? fear? loneliness). But there is no reason to ignore course recon on his light schedule.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Dec 12, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions
That's the part where I do agree he seems un-pro
It’s such a small thing, they could have gone past on their way to or from one of their alpine camps or whatever. Not doing it in the Dauphiné I get. He has a working plan to get into July in top shape and Suisse suits him better for that, compromising it would be stupid. But not even having a look at it….?
I don't think it's anything to be torn about
You’ve got it right, especially in Andy’s case. His greatest limiting factors are those other things, but not reconnoitering is not an option in his case. It’s a dereliction of duty soldier. THIS ISN’T FUCKING NAM!
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
You may be right about 2011, but
every year Andy spends more and more time paying attention to the details of time-trailing and the time trial courses, means that Andy gets better and better at it, year after year, until finally, he might hold his own in the time trails, exploit his strengths climbing, and win the TdF.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 12, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
You made me watch the last 5km again...
That was some bike racing there
by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 13, 2011 2:09 AM EST up reply actions
Cadel Evans has lost the Tour by 8 and 23 seconds
15 seconds is nothing to sneeze at. We forget that the majority of PdC thought Schleck was going to keep the yellow going into the ITT. Most of us were under the impression that the margin of victory would be no more than 30 seconds, and on most days, Cadel wouldn’t have won by that much. He had the ride of his life.
In 2009, Schleck would have been in a virtual tie with Contador without the popped chain.
15 seconds is huge. He’s not going to gain all that much more time on an ITT, as his body is not shaped for it.
\V/ for Villanova
by dees ees en drama on Dec 13, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Andy Schleck didn’t know before the Tour started what the situation going into the final time trial would be, and what sort of condition both his and Evans’s bodies would be in at that stage.
But if a recon of the TT route would save him in and around 15 seconds, why not do it? Take 2 days, go and do the route, record it and that’s a great bit of work done.
Again, to echo most of my other comments on this thread, how can a Tour contender decide that NOT reconning the TT route is a good idea?
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Dec 14, 2011 6:02 AM EST up reply actions
popped chain was 2010, not 2009
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
pro's comments
I mean sean kelly amongst others commented on his poor arm/hand position on the bike. that can’t be to fix surely? just needs the will to change.
Problem is central, literally
Neither Schleck has any core flexibility. Reading an article from the Specialized fittings with Andy Pruitt from a few years ago, Pruitt stated that they were so inflexibile that they could barely (or not) touch their toes.
The only athlete more resistant to Pruitt’s advice than the Schlecks? Some dude named Cavendish. Course, he doesn’t need to work on his time trialling (and he’s pretty damned low and compact anyway.)
Cancellara, otoh, is very limber.
Why does this matter? Simple: achieving a decent aero-tuck is not dissimilar to achieving a good downhill ski-tuck. Both require flexibility in the lower back.
Lacking that flexibility, rider’s are stuck with more of an upright position. And where this matters is in any sort of cross-wind.
Minimizing frontal exposure is great, but minimizing side-exposure matters more. And the higher you are, and the more openings you present for wind-flow to stall out and create turbulence, the slower you are.
crazy thing is
that they could improve this fairly easily – requires effort for sure, but no mystery as to what to how to go about it.
To be fair
Changing one’s flexibility changes a whole bunch.
It could require a LOT of adaptation.
by R Mc on Dec 11, 2011 7:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I know who I am and I know what I can do. I will not change my ways of doing things…
Seems you’re right.
More seriously – this means regular stretching, probably with a physio, right? And core strengthening, if he’s not doing that already. Unlikely to have any negative effects on other aspects of his riding, and likely to reduce future injury?
totally agree
had a really great massage, got a little flex in parts of my back that have been essentially inflexible since….well, I can only remember back to age 7 or so. Felt really cool, until the multitude of stabilizing muscles that I have never had to use (or not for decades, anyway) decided to start cramping up randomly as I was walking, riding, sitting, sleeping. It’s pretty well re-rigidized, now, and I’m not missing the flashes of random agony (though it was nice to really touch my toes).
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
So then
imagine gaining that flexibility actively rather than passively. You achieve it slowly strengthening along the way.Then you get to keep it with a regular maintenance. And voila, you’ve regained some of your youth again.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Sign me up!
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Dec 12, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
Well, it's not like I have not tried that, over the years.
heck, I used to race butterfly. If training for that still leaves your spinal column stiff, that’s probably a bad sign. While “more flexibility” is a fine goal, I think it’s questionable to suggest that they just somehow forgot to ever work on that aspect of their fitness.
I know, people who do yoga (e.g.) make great strides. But people who do yoga get to self-select at multiple points. (Going to the first class, not hating the sensation & staying in the class, etc.)
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
Another example
Is Cadel. Does lots of flexibility/core strength work, and his very extreme TT position is a result.
Much more complete, detailed, professional preparation paid off for him.
Agreed, Agreed, Agreed....
ASchleck has a monumental array of cycling talents- 2nd 3 years running in the TdF, 2nd in the Giro, and a LBL win is no joke- But IrishPeloton is absolutely correct.
In addition to his TT skills, ASchleck is an embarrassingly poor bike handler (for a professional) particularly when descending, and especially in the wet. His tactical nous is sketchy at best and his unique training combination of poor core strength, terrible flexibility (possibly as a consequence of craning his neck looking for Franck every 5 minutes), technical ineptitude and stubborn adherence to a very limited stage racing schedule that emphasizes placing 2nd in the TdF over regular wins has obviously not succeded thus far.
He epitomises the saying “If you keep doing what you have always done you’re gonna get what you always gotten”.
I am skeptical that JB can push buttons better than Riis (who has made a career out of convincing good cyclists that they can be Champions…) But you never know…
That said, I think that Alberto Contador will be the 2nd man to win each GT at least twice (Hinault), before ASchleck wins his first Stage Race.
There's a lot of stuff you can learn
but bikehandling and descending… not easy mastering that.
(And I can know, I’m a terrible descender)
Merckx won each GT at least twice.
5 Tours, 5 Giros, 2 Vueltas.
by GreylockGrinder on Dec 13, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
General Rule of Thumb still applies
if a record regarding cycling victories can be defined, E. Merckx has done it :-)
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
sorry gents...
Merckx only won a single Vuelta (in 1973)-
From cycling Hall of fame.com:
http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rider_bio.asp?rider_id=1
“He won the Tour de France five times, the Giro d’Italia five times and the Vuelta a Espana once for a total of eleven Grand Tour victories.”
Which is first on the list, but Hinault is the only mat to win all the GT’s at least twice
How to look like a fool ...
Be over 50 and rely on your memory!
by GreylockGrinder on Dec 14, 2011 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
"obviously not succeeded so far"
unless he considers 2nd place to be “success.”
His call, I guess.
\V/ for Villanova
by dees ees en drama on Dec 13, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
Take away all of his bikes except his TT rig.
Make that boy clock up some serious miles on the TT rig. He never looks comfortable, and never looks fast. Cancellara on the other hand, looks like he becomes part of the bike.
Mind you, I am soooo hoping that EVans repeats next year, so not-insignificant part of me says “Andy, just keep doing what you’re doing son…”
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
Extreme, but it'd change things
A bit part of TTing is getting used to producing power in that position. It’s a different muscle recruitment pattern, so it doesn’t matter if he can produce 400w+ at threshold when climbing if he doesn’t make his muscles adapt to the TT bike.
The first 2-3 times I ride in my TT position in the summer, I can’t ride fast at all. Takes a few weeks of riding in it 2x a week to get it back. All other good TT riders I know say the same thing – it requires being on the bike 1-2 times a week minimum.
I NEED MOAR MUD
by Douglas Ansel on Dec 12, 2011 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
I remember Sastre would do at least one 100km ride a week on his TT bike in his CSC days
by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 13, 2011 2:06 AM EST up reply actions
I suspect that given the criticism he cops for not doing enough TT work, if he was ridiing TT 100ks a week, he'd say so.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I read something a few years ago that serious TTers will do their usual training rides on the TT bike regularly
so it’s familiar, even if they hate it
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions
I'd be interested to know how often Cancellara/Martin etal take their TT rig on a training ride
It is a different set up, different position, different experience, and you simply cannot expect to dive through corners at high speed, with confidence and gusto if you are not comfortable on the machine (recon or not).
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
Cancellara is virtually unique in his time-trial handling skills
part of which comes down to recon, and the other his perfect positioning.
Not even Zabriskie (another excellent position) or Evans quite has Cancellara’s handling skills.
Pick almost any time trial of the last 5 or 6 years. Then just settle down to watch one or two corners. Some of the best riders in the world will sit up a little and take the corner out of the aero-extensions. Very often Cancellara will not.
I seem to recall tho, that in 08 or so, Cancellara had a run of some over-cooking the corners crashes in tts.
Cancellara is good, damn good.
Of that there is not doubt, but he’s not that unique, not that much better at handling a TT rig than the rest of the best. Go search youtube for some videos of Taylor Phinney, there are some great in car shots of that boy slicing through corners mere mm from the gutter.
I think that if you go and look at video of any of the really good TT’ers you will see the same thing. On technical courses they all excel at not losing speed through corners, they are able to maintain near constant power through the bike and avoid braking and accelerating like the plague.
A big part of this is being familiar with how the bike handles, and that comes from riding the damn thing.
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
His bikehandling is amazing, on his TT bike, in descents, even on cobbles
My jaw dropped when I saw him take the lefthander from the Haaghoek to the Leberg in RvV. He made a 5meter gap in that corner, Boonen simply couldn’t take that corner at the same, uberhuman speed (I don’t blame him for that). But his amazing cornering is what created the gap. If Boonen could have followed him through that corner, we’d have had a whole different race.
(Pic by Jered gruber)
His incredible cornering was decisive in last years E3 prijs too.
Most guys (like Andy) will never be that good at bikehandling, no matter how many hours they train on the TT-bike.
Okay, maybe he is that good.
About now someone should post a link to that video of him descending in stage 7 of the 2009 TDF. I would but youtube is blocked here at work….
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
By now we can just close our eyes and do the replay that way.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
AWesome
I think it was in Geelong that he made full use of some portions of the course, IIRC? Practically scraping the fencing? Very, very cool to watch. Then there’s the 2007 prologue in London where he was catching the motos in the corners.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Dec 13, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
That was one bad-ass moment in cycling
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
I'm going to be contrarian
Yes, Andy could probably do a bit more and perhaps he is a bit pigheaded in some respects…… BUT…. everyone is always so quick to point out the “easy” alterations and the gains to be made but rarely mention the cost that comes with making those changes.
- Positioning. Like R Mc mentions, getting more limber means a major change in AS’s basic physique. What effects will that have to his training and riding? And “just make him ride the TT bike all the time”, what does that do to his climbing? You can’t change the training regime of a fine tuned elite athlete without it having consequences. If you could so easily, Cancellara would have trained for and ridden the Ardennes and Lombardia these last two years to complete his monument collection. But he hasn’t because of the price that comes with it.
- Attitude. Andy has been described fro his first days on CSC as the bohemian supertalent. He is focused in his riding but is otherwise absentminded, relaxed and laid back. And it works for him. Trying to cast him in the Lance-mold is bound to backfire in my opinion. Lance was successful because he found a model to perfectly adapt his hyper personality to his TdF prep, it doesn’t mean it works for everyone. Andy has to prepare in his way to be in the right mental place.
One example is the pre-riding. We always assume it is such a golden path to success since those that use it successfully are highly vocal in their praise of the method. That doesn’t mean it is for everyone. If you are apprehensive about TTs to begin with pre-riding might just make you worry all the more about the difficulties instead of having a positive effect? Not everyone is the same.
It's too common
To look at the succesful to see what they do, and use that as guidance. The problem is that many of the unsuccesful might do pretty much the same thing, and the important difference lies somewhere else.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Dec 12, 2011 4:04 AM EST up reply actions
mentioning this name is never popular
but there is an example for AS to follow. The chicken in the 2007 TdF produced the time trial of his career in Albi (and it had to have been down to more than just pharmacological reasons). He has a similar body type and similar skill set as a cyclist on the whole as AS.
Maggie was the ES “talking head” in the studio that day in 07. Amidst the general disbelief at the performance post race remember him commenting along the lines that he knew MR had been doing plenty of riding on his TT rig over the winter, and Maggie did a reasonably believable job of defending MR that day – at the very least he gave some context saying it wasn’t 100% out of left field.
It is easier to improve the TT skills you already have and make the best of them (without irreparably harming the other parts of your skill set) than, for example, making the Cancellara type adjustment as above. TT performance can be improved by something as obvious as practice.
Ja, I'm skeptical on that nowadays
Being a big Basso/CSC fan at the time I remember the stories on the huge effort put in by Basso & Riis to drill him into a competent TTer, and in 2006 we saw that it worked. But in hindsight looking at Bassos TT performances before and after that period it’s pretty obvious that his “planning to dope” in all likelihood had a far greater impact than any specific training he did.
Definitely
On the other hand, you won’t know for sure until you try. Or maybe he already tried different things in the past and this is the optimum. Could be that these are his limitations and the second places were really the best he could do. Which, you know, ain’t too shabby.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
by tedvdw on Dec 12, 2011 7:09 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess the problem is that he peaked very early
Winning 3 Best Young Rider TdF jerseys made it seem like a TdF win was inevitable. I guess maybe it’s better to have a career like Cadel’s (with his clutch of TdF 2nd places), where you learn over all kinds of races, and build up to the huge wins
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
No exactly.
Cadel was getting big wins at 19.
A major difference few are pointing our is Cadel has been training for this win since he was about 16, I think.
Both the AIS and Mapie have spent a lot of time helping him also.
I am not seeing that with the Schlecks so far.
While I’m sure they have a coach, there doesn’t seem to be a significant infrastructure supporting them as what Cadel got at a young age.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Indeed - having a supportive national Fed like Aus and GB really does made a difference
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
What I mean is Cadel has gone through a lot of physical and mental training and in this tour I think the latter is really what made all the difference.
AS needs more then just to HTFU.
He needs to decide he wants to do that, and then he needs the guidence in that process.
I’m not so sure JB is the best for this, or if AS even really wants to.
At 26, he’s got some time.
We’ll see . . . .
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Meh
You know that about Evans, apparently, but not about the Schlecks. Doesn’t necessarily mean they didn’t enjoy comparable training. Just means you (OK, everybody outside Luxembourg) are more familiar with, have better access to (information about) Evans.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
My point was, it may take Schleck (26y/o) a bit longer to get to the mental position Cadel (34y/o) showed this year.
And, I don’t recall Lux having a sporting institute backed by Mapei that has been working with him since he was in his teens.
Further, I honestly do not see JB as a training guru what so ever.
He has developed jack shit for riders over the years and, with the exception of a few notable individual performances, tactically delivered zilch.
If anything, this situation might be the worst thing for AS.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Leverage your strengths - for sure, but..
I am a big believer in putting energy into leveraging your strengths rather than trying to lift your weaknesses, but you have to get your weak points at least to an acceptable level, and the fact is that AS’s TT is not at that level.
I have no insight at all into what TT specific training he does (obviously), but you have to admit, every time he sits on a TT rig he just looks uncomfortable. There is a good reason for that. They are uncomfortable! Riding a TT bike is NOT like riding your normal bike. At all.
I think that AS’s path to GT success is probably along the lines of get more aggressive when the steep stuff goes up and limit his losses in the TT (almost in inverse of Indurain), but he has to lift his TT results.
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
Good points
and better put than saying ITT course recon is a waste of time for Andy.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Cance completely altering his body type and AS becoming more limber
Are not the same things. Regular stretching will help you become more limber and I doubt it would adversely affect his climbing.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
Stretching / core strengthening exercises aren't free
They take time and effort. Not saying it WILL affect his climbing but I can easily see how it could.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
And it could
it takes baby steps/patience to achieve the right balance for your body. Andy isn’t at his ‘body balance’.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Flexibility has a cost
The more flexible you are, the more you have to use muscles to stabilise yourself.
Isn’t it possible that AS’s climbing ability comes in part from being able to use all of his muscular effort to climb and just letting the locked-in core shape hold itself together?
that.
Like after an injury—locking down muscles can be protective and effective, at least in the short term. Maybe that’s how he got so good at climbing at a young age. Someone else would have developed more slowly but more broadly, and had a better platform for improvement. Sort of a hard choice, if you’re a one trick pony with a really good “one trick,” to risk giving up that trick, in hopes of learning other tricks. Cancellara did it, but only after being the undisputed king of the prologue / short TT got boring—and then he did it in steps, to king of all TT’s, then “king of TT’s who can do it hardman style in classics,” “king of TT’s who can hold on over progressively steeper climbs”—and in each case, there was a payoff for a teammate, if not for him. That’s by definition not true when the tricks you need are TT-ing and descending. There’s no intermediate payoff to a teammate, and possibly precious little for Andy himself.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
You have to stabilize yourself no matter what.
flexibility improves the range of positions in which you can be stable.
Lack of core strength means that the stabilizing functions best performed by core muscles must also be performed by other muscle groups.
While your assessment might be correct for Schleck’s climbing, it reinforces what I’ve been maintaining about his relatively pathetic time trial- and bike handling skills: in his case, there is a greater cost to NOT being flexible enough to rotate his pelvis forward enough to both lower his upper body in a time trial position, and shift his center-of-gravity slightly forward to improve handling on descents.
No, your understanding of kinesiology is not correct.
The easiest example of this is to watch a gymnast move.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
When I think of all the analysis of different body conformations and stride in horses,
I realize how little we (dare to) actually discuss those sorts of mechanical differences in people. It’s not just draft horse vs. thoroughbred. Maybe we should discuss riders as the sum of their parts, or at least, the sum of their connected parts. Because a great downhill skier and a great skater and a great gymnast presumably all have excellent core strength, but the ideal conformation, and the ideal degree of flexibility can actually be quite different, can’t it?
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
While genetic variance can result in a human to be more capable as a gymnast, boxer, or cyclist, I do not feel the lack of flexibility can be directly attributed to any quantifiable benefit.
That said, there was this other guy people would talk constantly about on forums that wasn’t very flexible and had a distinctive hump on his back while he TT’d.
He went up hills pretty fast also.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
[grin]
I’m actually in agreement that flexibility likely would lead to a better outcome, in terms of both performance and injury… just pointing out it’s possible that there’s no way from the local maximum (a sub-optimal peak) to the true, highest physical point, without having to first drop down from that local maximum, through a valley of (relative) mediocrity and/or higher susceptibility to a greater range of injuries. And no guarantee about how long that would take.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
yeah I agree with Jens
adding: not a big fan of the “this is what champions do” stuff. How do we know what he does behind closed doors, how he trains, etc.? To chalk this up to a lack of effort . . . well, I don’t buy it. This is a guy who has won a monument, he had a really courageous ride at Amstel Gold last year, etc etc etc. Anyways, just not a big fan of that kind of talk.
btw wasn’t his TdF TT pretty good on the whole, something like top 20?
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Dec 12, 2011 10:46 PM EST up reply actions
17th. 3 seconds faster than Franck
but 2:30 down on Evans.
“pretty good on the whole” is what we say about “revelations” for the future, like, say Pierre Rolland, who finished 21st @ 2:50.
"pretty good on the whole" is what we say about "revelations" for the future
???
don’t even know what to say about that.
Anywaysssss, I’m too lazy to look this up, but how do the TTs of Evans and Schleck compare to past results? In my mind, Evans has always been phenomenal, Schleck has always been mediocre. In this TT, Evans finishes 2nd (I think?), which is phenomenal, and Schleck finishes 17th according to R Mc, which is better than mediocre. In other words, a. these results are in line with past results, b. if anything, this is an impressive ride by a guy who just isn’t made to TT well, a guy who had launched awesome attacks in the mountains (where, knowing he was going to lose time in the TT, tried to build an insurmountable lead) and was likely cooked, etc etc.
But like I said, I haven’t looked up past results, so my thinking on this might be wrong.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Dec 12, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
It is excellent for a strong domestique, not great for a genuine contender.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
From what I remember, not his best result
but really not that far from it. He was far behind Evans, but as I said above, that was more because of Evans than Andy. Cadel was one minute ahead of Contador and somehting like 90 seconds faster than Cancellara. Though of course, lots of stuff happens during a GT and not every result should be given weight.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Dec 13, 2011 3:08 AM EST up reply actions
yeah this is well put I’d say
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Dec 13, 2011 7:31 AM EST up reply actions
17th is really rather mediocre
Don’t forget that only about 25 guys have a reason to give this TT a proper go. The top 15-20 plus the TT specialists. Factor in that he was wearing the MJ, noone could be more motivated.
He is focused in his riding but is otherwise absentminded, relaxed and laid back. And it works for him.
From where I’m standing, it hasn’t worked for him.
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Dec 13, 2011 4:59 AM EST up reply actions
Disagree...sorry but 4 2nd place in GT's when your 26 is damn good and is only a tweak or two away from winning
He has to make some adjustments yes but you cannot say that is has not worked for him.
Yeah, he hasn’t won a stage race…many famous GT riders didn’t win a (pro) stage race yet at 26 with examples like Zoetemelk, Poulidor (okay, maybe not the best examples ;)), Sastre, etc.
by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 13, 2011 5:17 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, not to mention that 2 of those “losses” were to the best GT rider of his generation.
the more I think about the “this isn’t what champions do”/“he doesn’t suffer enough” talk . . . well, the Americans have great terms for it: armchair quarterbacking or Monday-morning quarterbacking.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Dec 13, 2011 7:37 AM EST up reply actions
Armchair quarterbacking is what we all do here isn’t it? I make no apologies for that.
Coming second in the Tour is a wonderful achievement. He beat 196 other riders, or whatever it was and that’s fantastic.
But my point is he doesn’t seem to be willing to put in the extra effort in preparation that other riders seem to be willing to do. Why not de a recon? Why not rule out any defecit that not doing a recon might add to his overall time.
If I’ve finished second in the same race every year since 2009, I would sitdown, in my armchair, and think, well what can I possibly do to improve here? What did I not do last year that maybe I should make an attempt to do this year?
Again, the simple question is, why not do a recon? It will not reduce his chances of victory. It can only help. I don’t agree with a comment above that suggests he might get even more nervous about a TT course if he has been over it and knows what’s coming. I just don;t buy that. Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t.
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Dec 13, 2011 7:48 AM EST up reply actions
I actually do agree with many of the points you make
but I’ve also gotten a bit tired of the “Andy is arrogant and non-professional” meme that seems to have taken on a life of it’s own, as well as the “Andy is held back by waiting around for Fränk”-meme. Both are based on a very narrow set of observations and the second one is downright stupid in my book.
I say this as someone who used to be a fan of the Schlecks but no longer am.
But the second one is based on his actual comments, right?
I mean, the quote about rather coming 2nd and helping Fränk onto the podium than winning the TdF makes it pretty clear
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
On ONE stage in ONE race, in specific circumstances
People make it sound like they are always riding around like anxious schoolboys never wanting to be more than 3 feet apart and Andy is towing Fränk around like a big cart of manure all the time.
But there are middle points, too, right?
I mean it’s not that Andy can’t ride if Fränk isn’t holding his hand, and neither is it that Fränk never factors into Andy’s decisions – and actually, as I said upthread, I don’t think it’s necessarily unhealthy overall, if they’ve looked at where the “win at all costs” mentality has nearly taken one of them, so they’ve made it about wanting to support each other as it is as their personal success – but although it is an admirable trait in human beings, the perception that Andy doesn’t want it as much as other riders makes it less fun bike racing to watch
(It’s a bit like Pauwels in CX – yeah, he’s a superb talent, but my perception that he never leads unless he’s attacking solo is good tactics, but not as much fun to watch, for me at least)
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
The main argued point is that Andy holding back for Fränk has cost him chances of victory
and I have yet to see any kind of credible evidence that it has ever been the case. (Including the much moaned about Ventoux stage)
Isn't it more that the kind of attitude that manifests in holding back for Fränk
is what costs him victory? I mean, from my armchair view as a DDIFP, it’s part of the jigsaw – because we don’t tend to see (yes, yes, I know, I’m looking for my own evidence in a mediated environment) Andy absolutely killing himself and not managing it – I could forgive one of those riders who seems to put themselves through seven shades of hell and consistently comes fifth – with the occasional bonkers win from a mad attack, in a smaller race, or an unexpected stage – than I can someone who comes consistently second, while, * going on what I’m presented with * he doesn’t seem to try to improve on any of the issues he has
(I guess if he raced more, I’d like him more, but I know, I know, TdF above all, and that’s fair enough)
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
meh
The Tour which is the only stagerace where he turns up in anywhere near race-shape isn’t won from bonkers attacks, it’s won by consistency and from a few calculated attacks. If we have a problem with that we should watch the Eneco Tour instead. And we’ve seen Andy killing himself several times in these last years TdF it’s just that Contador has mostly been along there besting him even when the rest of the field has been left behind.
Also in the other races he focuses on, Amstel & LBL, he has made strong attacks in the finale in every issue these last years, albeit only succesful once in LBL.
Don't think I would put the Schlecks in the same group as
the Pauwels. The Schlecks often tries to lead groups and provides some level of attacks (as compared to most other GT/GC riders). However with thier current TT skills, the level aggressiveness in the mountains will probably not be enough to land a big title against the current set of competitors.
Yeah, I know, I'm not accusing the Schlecks of wheelsucking
I popped the Pauwels thing in there as an example of another rider I can’t warm to
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Odd comment, Jens.
Isn’t there ample evidence cited in this article and comments about his arrogance and non-professionalism?
Weak bike handling, descending, and TT.
Petulance and whining when one of them trips him up in racing.
No sign of change after years of problems.
Explicit rejection of the idea that JB can help him to rethink things.
Wouldn’t you call this arrogance and non-professionalism?
In my defense
you do look like an ass in your avatar
by Jens on Dec 13, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
what if we tell you you've got a nice one?
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
not to argue your main point
but i’d take the JB rejection with a grain of salt. Granted it fits in with the pattern, but i’m going to wait and see.
it's one thing to say
“I wish this guy had attacked in this spot” or “man he went too early” or something like that. It’s another to take one example of not doing a recon and say “he isn’t a champion.” This is essentially a non sequitur, especially when the guy has a monument to his name. How do you know what went into this decision? I just find it a weak argument.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Dec 13, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions
but i think
that example is just one of many. The main other one just being that he rarely tries to win a race.
Good money, good exposure for the team and sponsors.
A MJ with as much as, or more camera time than the eventual winner? That’s got to be worth plenty.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
Goal Setting
I set myself very low goals for my TT’ing this season and failed to achieve them ;) I think AS followed my plan but misunderstood the irony!
by Maratsafin on Dec 12, 2011 4:01 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Gotta admire Cancellara.
The man was royally beaten in 2011 by T-Mart, but as a real champion he has no intention of “switching” to other goals. Instead he wants to prove he is still the best in the biggest TT events. Looking forward to the battles. Chapeau.
Don’t know what works for A Schleck in terms of training, but one thing is pretty sure. Without a strong desire to win races he enters, he will find it difficult to ever become a champion.
I agree with all of this :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Yes
I love that Cancellara is saying “I’m not done yet kids”.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Time trialing is inferior,
Cancellara should give up the mantle to Tony, and train to win classics.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 12, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
do you think..........
that a guy who has won so much is going to roll over so easily? I hope not and I’m looking forward to some fearsome battles next season.
what's intrinsically inferior about a ride without other riders around?
I don’t love TT bikes, but I do love the essential, basic “rider, bike and road” quality of a TT. Plus for on site spectating, it’s lovely to have riders coming by for a couple of hours, not a couple of minutes.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
Less factors at play
which you could call purer (superior) or boring (inferior).
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
Namely, that you're competing against a clock and not against another human being.
Yes, “Less factors at play”, as tedvdw says, and which I offer is “boring (inferior)” rather than purer. Honestly, a number of years ago, I asked an ex-pro, “Isn’t a time trial a race of truth?” following the conventional pablum. And, he says something like, “Tom Boonen doesn’t time trial well at all.” This was just after Boonen’s magnificent win at Roubaix in 09. Ahh. well. So, I think about that. And, I think I see his point.
1. Time-trialing power will rarely win big races (other than time-trials). Cancellara was lucky at Roubaix in 2010. No one would help Boonen chase him down. The cowards were racing for second place. On the other hand, at Flanders in 2010, Cancellara was sublime, doing battle one on one against Boonen. O.K. But, now he’s a marked man, and the 50k power Cancellara has will rarely win a big classics race, when 50 kilometers from the finish there’s still a big group of really strong guys that will chase him down. I’d like to see Cancellara focus on developing sharp, attacking power, like Boonen, years ago, or Gilbert, so that he can win more monuments. Honestly, Cancellara fans had to have been very disappointed to see him fail to come around Nick Nuyens at Flanders at the finish line this year. I’d say that’s a result of focusing too much on time-trialing.
2. Going to toe-to-toe against another human being in a contest adds a completely different dimension to the contest. It’s not sterile, it’s not quantified, it’s primal. You have to deal with another human being at your side, in front of you, trying to destroy you. You palpably feel his emotion, passion, and will to beat you down. I’ve experienced this, to some extent, wrestling in high school. My first few bouts as a youngster were traumatic. I’d played other sports. But, grappling with someone so intimately was something completely different. Some, many, people just can’t handle that. They’re afraid of it. I’d not say this about Cancellara or Martin, but I suspect many time-trial specialists are afraid of doing battle against another human being toe-to-toe, so intimately. I name David Zabriskie. He’ll never win a big race. And, I name all the other endurance athletes out there in the world who’s sole focus is setting a PB rather than winning a race battling against other human being.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 14, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
Recall
the origins of TTing: historically they used the same bikes as they did in mass start stages. Also TTs could be insanely long, like 100km TTTs and something close to that in ITTs. The longest ITT in Tour history is 139km. So that is probably more like a race of truth than what we see today. Now it’s more like a race of sorta-truth among riders who have enough money and support and care to dial in everything.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Dec 15, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
One can't recall
what one never knew. Thanks. I had no idea ITT’s were so long in the past.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 16, 2011 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
I understand, belive me.
I watched a world class prologue, in person, and thought it was just amazing. At times, I was two or three feet away from some of the best riders in the world. From a fan’s perspective, a time trial is a lot more fun.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 16, 2011 4:03 AM EST up reply actions
I figure that Cancellara and other TT specialists basically invoke an "other" out of their heads
It’s not that they fail to do their best in a head-to-head match, it’s that others fail to have the same will to suffer when there isn’t a head-to-head match. Cause, see, either I have to believe that Cancellara doesn’t enjoy riding with others, doesn’t have good skills at reading other riders, etc (which I don’t believe, on the evidence of my own eyes)…or I have to believe that Boonen can be a flake when he’s not adequately inspired (and that I find easy to believe). I think that means I believe that Boonen is indeed capable of a better ride, of the two of them. Whether that means he IS a better rider, or a better competitor? Eh, that’s a different question. Cancellara’s splendid in a greater range of ways, IMHO, and he goes farther, as far as his concentration, prep and self-awareness. He’s so far shown significantly greater ability to re-make himself.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
I wouldn't be surprised
if Cancellara or Martin or some of the other big TT specialists are thinking very specifically about specific opponents while time-trialing. Then, again, I recall hearing Cancellara talk about time-trialing. Apparently, he’s focused a lot on his clock. “O.K., now I’m doing 52 kph, push it up to 53 kph.” Anyway, Cancellara, it is plain, has no compunction against battling other riders one-on-one. If what I said above has any legitimacy—that there’s a kind of reluctance, even cowardice, among TT specialists for battling against other human beings—then Cancellara will certainly evade that thesis. But, that’s fine. Cancellara is just special. A great classics rider with big time monument wins and the best TT rider of his generation. Are there others with the same accomplishment? I don’t know. (A great/good climber and a great/good GC time-trialist, in my view, is a very different sort of thing.)
Yeah, it may well be that some riders just aren’t as inspired to race when they aren’t racing against other human beings. Nice point. Boonen may be an example. Heh, even A. Schleck may be an example. (Did I just say that?) In that case, my idea is flipped on its head, really. Time-trialing is a race of the truth, in a sense. It tests whether someone can perform at his best even if he doesn’t have the added motivation that comes with doing battle against another person.
Nevertheless, I’ve seen the kind of cowardice I spoke about above first hand. I’ve experienced, to some extent, myself. And, I’ll aver my thesis holds if there are a sufficient number of time-trialist specialists who just do not win big races battling against other human beings. I can think of a few. But, that’s a matter of history and statistics. And, frankly, right now, rather than doing the research, I’m off to the fridge for another beer.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 17, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
Hinault rode a pretty good time trial as well
and I hear Merckx was ok too.
Anquteil didn’t suck at ’em either.
An interesting ling (courtesy of CN forums)
. And a translation of relevant bit for the discussion…"Andy Schleck admitted himself that he was a bit lost during yesterday’s training session. And there is a good reason because Andy has been riding with a fixed gear (44×16) for several weeks. He explains: “It’s not easy to get back to a normal bike after that. But a fixed gear is a good way to find a smooth pedaling. I hadn’t done this since being in the junior ranks…” And this idea was imposed to him by Johan Bruyneel, in order to improve his ITT skills. Other riders such as Laurent Didier have also been doing this."
Alexandr Pliuschin is riding for the LT Conti team of mostly U-23s?
after four years at the top level? Does anyone know the story behind that? Did he want a chance to lead a team, or did he get squeezed out by the merger (probably more likely)?
He is going to be leading the team with Bob Jungels...Pliuschin has had a very difficult time in the Pro Tour
he was near anorexic with Ag2r saying himself that he was barely eating anything to try and get to racing weight. Then with Katusha, he was thrown into the biggest races without any results to speak of really.
He was part of the purge at Katusha (that made me chuckle) and I don’t think he was ever meant to go to Leopard-Trek (before the merger). He just wants to get back to basics and build up again to the form where he was U-23 Ronde Champ
by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 13, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
yeah I know he lacked results these last few years
except of course for the Moldovan nats (I think the jersey is the only reason I even know who he is). I was just shocked to see his name come up in the article. Interesting to hear it was his choice and not him being cast aside.
44x16
weak
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
not if the whole point is to pedal easy / "find a smooth pedaling."
Can’t jump on a guy for not doing specific, goal-oriented training (and not following instructions), then jump on him for doing specific, goal-oriented training (and following instructions). Presumably a control freak like JB didn’t say, “pick a gear, any gear.”
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
that statement was separate from any criticism of his training i might have
if that’s what was called for/what he was told to use, good on him. i was just saying that in my experience with fixed gearing (which is completely unrelated to training for the tour, or training in general) that’s a weak gear.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Yeah, a 44x16 is weak because . . . . .
. . . it means you are likely sticking to flat, or rolling routes.
I’m running a 40×15 and that let’s me go up almost anything and down the other side.
Flats, I can hold about 50km/h
RPM Cadence – It is super fast, but that has helped me a lot at real race pace in the last 50k of a race.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Something about this sounds off.
I’m not trying to be a dick and put you on the spot… but calculating that in my head, you’re saying you ride around on flats holding about a 150-155 cadence?
That would be fairly insane. First off, for mere mortals, “holding” 50kmph is pretty damn hard enough, but doing it at a 155 cadence sounds off.
I rode from Sweden to Spain on a 43×15, so I got quite a bit of practice. 155 cadence is hard to “hold” downhill even with panniers without your legs saying “I think I’ve spun enough”
You rode a FG from Sweden to Spain!
Wow.
The longest I’ve done on the FG is about 200km, which was flat and sucked.
Typically, I am riding the bike to work; late.
Or I am riding on some sort of loop which contains a rather sharp climb / decent.
On my way to work, or riding back into town, I can tuck in behind a scooter and hold that speed.
For better or worse, I don’t have a computer on my bike and I haven’t tracked my cadence in over a decade.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
it depends
because it’s not flat around there. 0-1000m, 35km of 4-7%. 44 × 16 would be tough. on the flat though he’d be spinning faster than my tumble dryer.
it's not flat where i live
i do rides that long with hills hitting above 15% on a 46×15. i expect a little more out of my pros.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
this is a ride i do regularly on the fixie. unless he’s riding up mountains, i just don’t see a 44×16 being much training for a rider of his caliber.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
He says the goal is to develop a smooth pedalling.
It seems to me this less about power, but more about developing a proper technique. The benefits of which will be taken later on. Anyway, the relevant bit is that, contrary to what he said, he might be willing to listen to Bruynel and adjust some aspects of his preparation accordingly. As many flaws that belgian has, I don’t see him ignoring an issue that is clearly preventing Andy Schleck from winning the Tour.
It's not about strength training
but spinning, smoother pedal stroke. 44×16 is not too bad, 130 rpm at 45 km/h.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
This
and that above. Spinning a light gear for form and higher cadences can pay big dividends.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
i know
just seems like a low gear. i spin out mine any time the road doesn’t head up.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
What's your "spin out" rpm?
But if they really want to mess with A Schleck’s head, put him on powercranks next.
no idea
looking at my gps data, around 31mph at the track in that gear.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
nevermind
36 mph on sprint night.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
looks like it's around 150rpm
i’m so pro.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
wish those things were cheaper.
Curious to try, not even remotely curious to buy.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
know a couple of riders who swear by and at them
and some who just swear at them.
I’m with ya, tho: way too much of a buy-in cost for a casual experiment . . .
The ride that you've linked has no climb on it near 1000m more like 70m.
You don’t know what Andy is riding on his bike, but for a guy like Andy Schleck, he could likely ride up many cat 1 climbs in that gear.
The steepest looking section you’ve got on your ride goes from 865-1018ft. (46.6m) in 1.14mi. (1.83km/1835m) So you’re looking at a 47m bump at about 2.6%.
You should be able to power climb up that in a 53×12.
I hope I haven’t crossed the line to dick…. if I have I apologize.
“Slow down to learn” is probably what Andy is thinking/being told. Riding a bike isn’t always about hammering a 52-14 fixed gear (which is what I rode for strength training). But I’d still never call Schleck weak when he’s regularly going uphill at 25-30kmph and his “normal” VAM is about 30% higher than mine.
i never said i rode it on 1000m climbs. it just said it was hilly, it’s a city ride, there are no mountains. and you’re right, i don’t know what andy is riding on, so we’re comparing my ride with nothing. but if he could go up a cat 1 on that gear, unless he’s going up cat 1s on that gear, it might be a bit on the low side. anyway, there’s two climbs on that ride that you can’t power up in a 53×12, i promise you. thor might, but not me or you. they’re more than just bumps, and 2.6% doesn’t exactly do them justice when there’s sections at 15%. they’re not cat 1s, but for hills in the city within a 10 minute ride from my place, they do just fine.
but again, i’m not claiming i ride tdf mountain stages on a fixed gear with higher gearing than andy’s. i was just saying that i ride a higher gear than that, than someone said it’s not flat where andy rides, to which i replied that it’s not flat where i ride, to which someone else replied that i’m not doing it for 20kms+, to which i replied with that ride, which is over 20kms, and hilly.
and going back to my original statement about the weakness of that gearing. in the grand scheme of fixed gear combinations, that’s on the low end. sure it might have a purpose, but either way, it’s an easy ass gear, hence my weak statement. i wasn’t calling the dude who placed 2nd at the last three tours weak. i wasn’t saying that gear is useless and nobody should ever ride it for any reason. i was making a half joking, out of context statement about the relative badassness of that gear combo.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
This is a discussion about Andy
No humor is allowed.
"I’m pretty disappointed, but if this is what people want to see, a race decided on a downhill," Andy Schleck said. "I don’t think that. A finish like this should not be allowed."
team dopestrong is still waiting for its wildcard invitation
as soon as we get it, it’s on.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Hey Tough Guy
Do you ride that little gear while carrying a keg on your back?
;-)
All I've had today is, like, six gummy bears and some scotch.
my training methods might be old school
but they’re highly ineffective. wait… i think i see the problem now.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Yes
You should also be carrying cups with the keg.
Kids nowadays…………….
All I've had today is, like, six gummy bears and some scotch.
ok, my bad
like I said, I wasn’t trying to be a dick, just reading and responding. Plus, where I’m from there are tons of guys/girls riding around with 53 tooth front rings and 20 tooth cogs asking what’s your ratio? What’s your ratio? looking at 43-15 as if it’s “weak”. Or inevitably the conversation goes to how one guy can “hold” 160 rpm for 10km yet in reality can’t sprint 150 for more than 150m. Or riding 52-13 and stylishly walking up to the coffee shop at the top of the hill.
You know, typical pissing contest stuff.
I guess what I’m trying to say is I hear these claims a lot within the community, and they’re very serious.
My sarcasm detector isn’t calibrated to internet.
I don’t wanna bust anyone’s balls, but sometimes curiosity/malfunction gets me sucked in.
no problem
i mean, i was doing just what you describe people doing where you’re from, albeit jokingly with the current second best tdf racer in the world, and then i also got sucked in defending my ridiculous statement.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Best I can tell the high point in Luxembourg is 560m
I don’t think Andy Schleck regularly did climbs of 1000m when he was riding that fixie. I doubt he ever did a climb of much more than a few hundred m on it actually. I think a lot of pros don’t regularly do climbs of 1000m in training period. Especially not when they are based in Luxembourg or any of the Low Countries, as there is no point/place that high (Belgium 694 m and Netherlands 877 m) and no guarantee there is a road that goes over it.
Besides Maratsafin’s made-up-on-the-spot hypothetical training ride numbers were for a range of elevations for the whole ride, not the height gained on any one climb.
Highest point of the continental Netherlands is the tripoint of NL, Belgium and Germany at 323 m. Highest point of the Kingdom of the NL is a mountain on the island of Saba, Dutch Antilles, at 877 m.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
Heee!
That made me grin!
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
i've done surrey hills on 48x18...
picked a relatively gentle route – from effingham up to ranmore down to westhumble then boxhill – but was doable. the descents were the worst bits actually, not the climbs but then none of those above 6% for any sustained distance
by thebongolian on Dec 12, 2011 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
also weaker than cadel's
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
stop imitating your brother
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Dec 12, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
YOU stop immitating YOUR brother
Love,
Mom
All I've had today is, like, six gummy bears and some scotch.
Andy Schleck, in a nutshell.
First, hats off to irishpeloton for this post. What he or she said really needed to be said, and I don’t think anyone anywhere has said it so clearly and forcefully. Let me add my two bits.
1. Andy on the Stockeau in 2010. Massive crashes on a wet descent bring him down. We all catch the camera shot of Andy, dazed and confused at the side of the road, only to be saved by the machinations of Riis and Cancellara, maneuvering to neutralize the stage in utter injustice to Hushovd and the others chasing Chavanel for the stage win, as well as the other GC contenders who made it off the Stockeau minutes ahead of an incompetent A. Schleck. What’s Andy Schleck’s reply, “it was good that they waited”. Really? Why? This is his attitude, his assumption, clearly, “the Tour should only be decided on high mountain passes in the Alps or Pyrenees”, i.e, “Where I am best.” And, then, the next day, he rides Cancellara’s wheel to the front in the Arenberg with no thought at all that he’s put time into Contador, Rogers, and Armstrong on cobblestones, due to accidents, far from high mountain passes. Childish hypocrisy.
2. Chaingate. Andy attacks out of the saddle with a crossed chain, drops it, grinds it into his bottom bracket housing, and whines about the fact that Contador attacks over the top of him. If I were Contador, I’d have looked back at Andy, pointed at him, and laughed.
3. Stage 16, the TdF, 2011. The descent into Gap. Andy Schleck: “I was not feeling great when he attacked and I did a bad descent,” Andy Schleck said to reporters after Stage 16. “People don’t want a race that is decided in a downhill. We don’t want crashes or thoughtless risks.”
WTF? The descent into Gap is hallowed ground for bicycle racing. Descending is an essential skill for a grand tour winner. No, “we” only want to see a grand tour race won on safe, high mountain, uphill stage finishes, I guess. “We” only want to see the Tour decided on Andy’s favored ground. BS, Andy, you’re not that good of a climber. You can’t attack like Contador or Armstrong. You’re actually fairly boring on the high mountain, uphill finishes.
Let’s take a bet on how many times A. Schleck has ridden the descent into Gap. My bet is this: as many times as he’s reconnoitered Stage 20’s time trial in Grenoble. None, before he raced it in 2011.
I surmise that that the TdF race organizers designed the course in 2012 largely in reaction to A. Schlecks remarks after Stage 16 in 2011. And, I think Andy’s going to pay for his childishness for at least a few years.
Adding to point 1
It maybe my memory playing tricks on me, but I remembered the split on the peloton, havoc and subsequent gap by the Andy group being made when Frank Schleck, Which I though was speciaally ironic. Because of Gap and because it was his brother
But crash caused by Tony Martin
don’t see how F Schleck getting taken out makes anything ironic? Stockeau and Wallers stage, two of a very select few Schleck crashes that weren’t self inflicted.
oh really?
had always heard it was frank who caused the crash – i guess everyone just naturally assumed it.
Still, i find andy’s attitude very hypocritical. Happy to take time in the draft of cance’s powerful ass thanks to contador being stuck in the wreck, then trying to make an attack while contador was bunched in, then dropping his chain while he was cross-chained and now he’s still whining about it. Jeez. I used to like the guy but he lost me with his attitude during that tour and it hasn’t improved since.
I agree with much of what you say, but not this. You think he didn't know who was behind him?
then, the next day, he rides Cancellara’s wheel to the front in the Arenberg with no thought at all that he’s put time into Contador, Rogers, and Armstrong on cobblestones, due to accidents, far from high mountain passes. Childish hypocrisy.
Seriously, as Andy’s coach I’d have worked hard to get it through to AS that what that leg of the race proved is that he can take risks, and he has more skills than he allows himself to acknowledge. My impression was that he loved that stage and he had every right to feel like that. Sure, he was in Cance’s slipstream, but he didn’t falter…unlike the descent into Gap.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Andy rode cyclocross world champs as a junior
(Zolder, 2002) but he was ill and got an unremarkable result, 32nd or so.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
Perhaps he needs a little more time in the rough and tumble.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
He was a Lux CX junior/u23 champ IIRC
(yes, yes, I know, Luxembourg is not the largest population!)
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
I agree.
Andy rode very well on that stage. Saxo Bank was fabulous. And, you’d want to say that it should convince him that racing on all days, on all stages, in all sorts of terrain is what it takes to win the TdF. But, alas, it didn’t. His whining in 2011 about le Tour being decided on descents shows he didn’t. Hence, my charge of hypocrisy. But, . . . Andy is young, and his ‘11 attack on Stage 18 . . ., well, I’m still open to Andy.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 13, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
I'm glad you're still open because I'm not particularly. I prefer Frank, flawed as he might be.
And then of course there’s Cadel. My fandom in some ways would prefer this version of Andy.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Oh, but come on,
Andy’s attack on stage 18 was fantastic. When is the last time a real contender attacked from so far out. I hope it changes his attitude, style to racing from here on out. And, if it does, Cadel is in trouble.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 14, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions
I enjoyed Andy's attack, and respect him for it, but he's so....beige.
I never have any sense of him being arrogant…more just a youngest child born into the sun.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Where you see hypocrisy, I see mental gamesmanship.
I have no idea where fans get the idea, in any sport, that what comes out of a competitor’s mouth
a) bears any resemblance to formal logic
b) should bear any resemblance to formal logic
c) is done primarily to keep fans informed and/or
d) is somehow not a crucial part of the mental combat that goes on in parallel with the physical combat
Everywhere you look, there are competitors busy tweaking reality, doing “spin.” You can call them on it—that’s fine—but to be shocked or offended? (Or at least, disproportionately shocked or offended by any one instance?) Newsflash: no santa claus, no tooth fairy.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
by JFS_PGH on Dec 13, 2011 8:33 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
All very well, but...
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself.
For example, Andy makes comments people not wanting to see the race decided on a dangerous descent. Prima facie, read that as gamesmanship. But when in subsequent years he fails to work on improving his own descending, what do you make of it?
I think this thesis of this article (and Le Sprinteur’s comment) is based as much on the evidence Andy’s actions and performance as it is on (over)interpreting his comments.
Hmm.
Whining about wet, downhill descents and badly dropped chains, Andy believes will get him what advantage over his competitors? You can see from this posts here that fans of Andy have been really turned off over the last two years. Is he trying to cultivate an aura of vulnerability and weakness, so that then he exploit underestimation?
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 13, 2011 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
Er, Sorry.
The writing there was terrible, like a Russian immigrant trying to master English in New York. Blame it on PWDB.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 13, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
If he gets enough people on his side to make another rider (guess which one) less popular,
that comes back to help or hinder in the noise from the crowds, the pushes up the hill… and it creates a distraction that the other rider(s) end up wasting time on, talking about how to handle the media. Compared to some of the whirling sh*t storms we’ve seen in years past, Andy’s version is pretty low key.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
There are reasons to be critical of Andy Schleck, but these are not them
1) IIRC, half the field crashed that day. When he says the race should be decided in the Alps, he means “as an alternative to wiping out half of the GC on a downhill oil slick lottery.”
2) He forgave Contador, what, 30 minutes later?
3) First he complains about a dangerous descent, then he launches a surprise attack, right before another dangerous descent that he will now have to race. Notice any gamesmanship there? No? Really? Okay then…
\V/ for Villanova
by dees ees en drama on Dec 13, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
If not them, then what? I'd be interested in learning that.
1. The chasers going for the stage win made it through fairly well, and after a lot of people went down, most of the GC contenders got back up and were, if I recall correctly, around 1:30 to 2:00 minutes ahead of Andy. So, the GC wasn’t decided on an “oil slick lottery” as opposed to the Alps. No, only Andy’s chances would have been decided on the Stockeau, if not for the efforts of Cancellara.
2. “He forgave Contador”. Yeah, exactly. He botched his attack, and then he’s going to “forgive” Contador. For what?? Not stopping? Heh. Ryder H. had the best take on the matter. You pull your sword, and drop it, you are dead.
3. Gamesmanship? No. I truly believe Andy thinks, or did think, that the Tour de France should be decided by the best climbers only on high mountain passes. That shouldn’t be a surprise. Many fans think that as well. Lastly, if it’s gamesmanship, then what benefit, what advantage do you think he could gain against his competitors by whining about wet, downhill descents? Let me see. He says hates them, so that his opponents will attack on them, but they’ll find, surprise, surprise, that Andy is most skilled on wet, downhill descents? Nah. Sorry. They exploited him on the descent into Gap.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 13, 2011 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
he is still whining about chaingate
and complaining about the dangerous descent – i just can’t believe that that was gamesmanship – if so, then he should stop playing because he’s terrible at it. I bet that lost him more respect among both fans and fellow riders than anything else he’s said.
Can’t improve TT ability?
Bad position, flexibility, etc.
Work on your climbing then! Become unbeatable climber, head higher then anyone else! Attack on any opportunity, tire everybody down, for God sake!
Come to the TT with substantial lead, say 4 min, on Caddel or anyone else. Then your TT sucking will not meter that much!
" I like that Cav got his wins…"
JJY 10/20/11
.
Once again: He should ride the Giro
get a win under his belt(no of course it’s not a guarantee but a very good chance) to gain him some confidence and mojo and then target what will hopefully be a less TT heavy Tour in 2013. Or at least do the Vuelta to win, the Tour is still 10 months away at that point!
"Weltmeister!!" Zwei mal: 2010-2011...und weiter gehts
Depends somewhat on the Contador verdict maybe?
If Alberto is out for 1 yr, maybe he should grasp the opportunity, TT-heavy or not. He would need to take 4-5 mins in the mountains, but he could probably do that against Wiggo, and might have a chance against Evans.
Otherwise, I totally agree that a change is good. He needs a fresh approach and a fresh attitude, and this seems like the ideal year to do that. Target Ardennes, Giro, ride some 1 week races to win, no reason he couldn’t target San Sebastian, Lombardy – and of course WCRR this year is supposed to be like Amstel Gold.
Depending on the Contador verdict, he may have won the 2010 TdF, no?
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Assuming the Contador Verdict in Schleck’s favor (and that whole tainted beef defense is shoddy regardless of the verdict), Andy won a Tour, helped Sastre win a tour and has 2 seconds. That plus 3 young rider victories makes him a damn good TdF rider who is still young and has plenty of upside.
Maybe part of his maturation will be to scout the TT but Cadel wins either way this year, Cadel was dominant at this year’s tour.
"Have you ever played?" "Yes, I was a goalie"
OTOH if he really is ambitious about improving his TT
surely the greater challenge would be to take on the 2012 TdF head on? If he doesn’t the comments from the peanut gallery will surely be “put a few extra TT km in the Tour and Andy runs away like a scared kid”.
So maybe riding the 2012 Tour isn’t his best chance of a GT win in the short term but it may help in the long perspective?
From watching that documentary, he seems dedicated and has improved his TT a bit
We know he has his insular group and maybe he gets into a rut of sorts where he is improving slightly but not as much as he could under a bit different structure. Nothing major but just small adjustments
by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 13, 2011 4:17 AM EST up reply actions
I'm hesitant about the Kim A relationship
Hard to assess if KA is protective of the brothers in a way that is purely positive or if he is reluctant to push them out of their comfort zone for fear of compromising his relationship? In that respect the addition of Bruyneel might be a positive but I don’t think it will end well.
It does seem like KA is a bit reluctant in situations where he should be blunt
like if Andy needs to lose some fat or something. Doesn’t want to ruffle the feathers.
I agree with you about Bruyneel though…I see little to no progress being made
by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 13, 2011 4:49 AM EST up reply actions
who cares about the peanut gallery?
If i were him i’d rather try to win a race than satisfy all the ddifp. And he can work on his TTing regardless of which GTs he rides.
But he isn't interested in winning "a race" he is interested in winning the Tour de France
The DDIFP are the ones going on about how he needs to win “a race” to prove he is a bonafide contender.
yeah i guess that's maybe so
I guess if i were him i’d want to win some races – not to show i’m a contender but just to win. And given this year’s tour route, it’s the perfect year to focus on something else – giro and vuelta. If i were a gt racer – good enough to win or contend for the tdf, i’d also want to try to win the giro and vuelta. This is the perfect year for it. But yeah, aint gonna happen.
how he needs to win "a race" to prove he is a bonafide contender
He doesn’t need to win a race to prove he’s a bonafide contender, we know he is already. Second place in four Grand Tours proves that.
He needs to win a race to learn how to lead, how to ride in a leader’s jersey. When he wore yellow in the Tour in 2010, he was back at the car fetching bottles at one stage.
Maybe he was trying to be humble or generous in his leadership, which is admirable, but for a Tour de France contender, it’s ridiculous carry on.
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Dec 13, 2011 7:09 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Different teams do things differently
before attacking to win on the Alpe in 2008 Sastre was at the back getting bottles, talking to the DSs on the penultimate climb. Maybe they want to talk tactics and don’t trust the radios or whatever? Just because Phil & Paul and other commentators have been harping on that every Tour contender has to sit like emperor-like like Lance did it doesn’t mean it is the one true way to win the Tour. Going to the back in a group of 15 on a mountain isn’t going to make or break your chances to win.
I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet
but their last year or so with Riis, Andy and Frank both did a lot of work with Bobby Julich to improve their TTing. Supposedly he did help them improve, but obviously there’s still a ways to go.
Here’s Julich on the balance between TTing and climbing, from the article at the link:
Asked if Andy Schleck’s time trial progresson could hamper his prowess in the mountains, Julich made clear that it was a balancing act: "Of course we don’t want to mess with a good thing and Andy is one of the most naturally gifted riders in the world. I’m not going to ask him to put on five kilos in order to go fifteen seconds faster in a time trial just to see him lose two minutes on a climb."
5 uur gefietst vandaag. Begin al een kleurtje te krijgen, ook belangrijk.--Thomas Dekker
nice post jens
the word that comes to mind is introverted. not necessarily the best trait when you’re in the critical spotlight.
I think Andy's main strength is also his main weakness: he doesn't stress out easily.
Which is an important trait to have (maybe even an underestimated one) in the complete chaos that is the Tour de France. But he really needs extreme pressure to perform, and I can imagine that in a boring time trial training this pressure is “slightly” lacking.
That being said, if someone finishes in the top-20 of the final TT in the Tour, we’re inclined to say that he’s a pretty good time trialist… except if it’s Andy Schleck.
judging A Schleck's time trial performance
is all about whether it’s good enough to win him a Grand Tour.
That’s how his staff should judge it, that’s how he should judge it.
His time trial performance last year was not good enough to win him a Grand Tour. It does not matter if it’s “sorta good” by some other standard.
There’s another American-ism to describe that (although, it’s probably not just American): “moving the goal-posts”
exactly
what was sastre’s lead when he rode the time trial of his life to hang on to yellow? while he wasn’t considered a great ttist, it didn’t lose a tour for him. aschleck on the other hand, lost yellow because of his.
i guess we could alternatively blame his climbing for his 2nd place. had he been even better, he would have put more time on cadel and had a bigger margin to play with in the final tt.
or we could blame his racing style/aggressiveness. had he attacked more, he would have had more chances to put time on cadel.
either way, there’s something to address if he wants to win the tour. i, for one, don’t think his climbing is the problem. if, for whatever reason, improving his tt isn’t a good option (it could take away from his climbing, for example), then you have to start racing a little differently. maybe don’t put all your eggs in one massive attack 60kms from the finish. try to gain some time every chance you get (kind of like cadel did this year). maybe forming your own team so you can surround yourself with yes-men and not have to deal with a guy who’s won the tour as both a rider and ds wasn’t the best idea.
it’s easy to sit here and criticize a guy, especially not knowing what goes on behind the scenes. i usually like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and even play devil’s advocate defending people whose motives i’m not aware of. but andy schleck has shown me very little i can get behind. as Jens said above, most of that might be might interpretation of his words and actions, but that’s all i have to go on. it’s impossible to argue he’s not super talented. he’s been on the edge of being the greatest for years now. and the same two things seem to prevent him from winning a stage race the whole time (tt and handling/descending). at some point either you address those, or you deserve the criticism you get, even if it’s not exactly accurate.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Racing style is key
If you have the TT he has you cant afford to go through one of the two mountainranges without taking a few risks to gain time, in the case of 2011 the Pyrenees. Sastre basically got lucky, or benefited from the team working over that CSC gave Cadel in 2008.
I disagree with the concept that Sastre got lucky.
if for the simple fact it can mean that Andy got “Unlucky”
I think this article postulates that isn’t the case.
Andy cut it too close, which means he didn’t do enough with his strengths to get a gap. Like I wrote above about Simoni. You need to know the gap you need. Gibo wanted 7 minutes (which IS excessive)
Sastre had 1’34" on Evans. I’m sure he wanted 3 minutes. Evans wasn’t in his best form and Sastre is at least competent in the TT
Andy had only 57" and Cadel was a monster in 2011. Sastre even had 40 more seconds to deal with! There is a point where that guy chasing will be thinking I’m going to do this…. vs… I’m going to try. I think Cadel knew he would catch Andy.
Andy should have been thinking. IF Sastre had 1’34" and Cadel was off. I’m going to need 3’00+ and should be aiming for 4minutes over Cadel.
This year…. jeez. Andy will be like Simoni…. he’ll need a 7 minute lead through the mountains.
I think that the JB connection will benefit Andy long-term, but that the next 18 months
will not provide the success he wants.
Cadel Evans 2011 season was an end product of many years of mistakes and refining his style of riding and measurement of effort. If Cadel doesn’t have the years of pain, he doesn’t learn from it and in 2010 start to pick his moments better. If he doesn’t burst on the Alpe a few seasons ago, he maybe wouldn’t have kept his cool this year.
Experience doesn’t come with age, it comes through actual scenarios being played out and learning from those situations. You learn from pain. Indications are that Andy’s going to go through more pain before he finally applies himself in the best possible way.
by ike2112 on Dec 13, 2011 7:50 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Cadel is also bulldog tenacious, and seems to thrive on proving other people wrong
I am a huge Cadel-fan! I love it that the TdF isn’t about the best climber
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
Irish, I really enjoyed this. I think it's a breakthrough piece for you :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Really? Thanks Seahorse… only took me two years!
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Dec 13, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
IMHO, yes. This is the piece you should try sending out as a freelance.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Re descending - which the Schlecks don't shine at either
Emma Pooley used to be fairly Schleck-like when the roads went downhill, and it lost her races – she’s fantastic at the climbing, but not all courses are non-stop uphill (come back that Giro Trentino “start at the bottom of a huge Alp & don’t stop til the top” stage) so she spent an off-season working & working on it – apparently with some of that British Cycling psychological support, which I can get, because descending = scary! and as a result came back and won the Tour de l’Aude and all kinds of races. This is why I get frustrated with the Schlecks – because we see other riders working on their weaknesses and making improvements, but not the Schlecks.
Of course, it might also just be about will to win – thinking about that 2010 TdF stage where the brothers made that deal with Contador and rode together, gifting Fränk the win. I was frustrated with all three of those guys that day – on the one hand, it was sweet to see, but on the other….. ffs! Work together to get away, but 2 on 1 is a fantastic opportunity to get away from Alberto….
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 10:11 AM EST reply actions
whining
it was the f@cking whining about descents that got me this year. I mean what goes up y’know? it’s just as much a talent and skill as climbing. to watch a nibali, gilbert etc on the chase is fantastic, awe inspiring sometimes.
his comments came across as bitter small mindedness, disrespectful of others’ talents.
Maybe he's hoping for a sympathy vote
Like the one Fedrico Bahamontes got in 1959(?) when he was so frightened to take a descent that he stopped at the top of a mountain and waited for the peloton to catch up rather than do it on his own.
I saw a baby that looked like Cadel Evans the other day...
by John Cyclopunk on Dec 13, 2011 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
2009 stage into le grand bornand, not 2010
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
This great article only need 1 more rec to get pushed up above the line
(or whatever it’s actually called, where it sticks around for longer)
Who’ll be the one to make that rec? Go on, it’s a fabulous piece!
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 10:50 AM EST reply actions
What is JB's record as mentor?
Does he have a notable record of mentoring riders to success? Examples?
(No axe to grind, I’m just unaware of what successes his reputation is built on, aside from Lance)
contador, i guess
he didn’t start from scratch, but got him his first gt win.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Contador too, no?
As a Disco Boy and later
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 13, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
"aside from Lance" sort of says, ignore JBs whole DS career because lance was involved in a significant portion of JBs time as a DS thus far...
And, he’s got:
8 TdFs (armstrong & contador)
2 Giros (salvodeli & contador)
2 Vueltas (heras & contador)
in like 11 years…
Then there are Leipheimer’s 3rd in TdF, 2nd in a vuelta, armstrong’s 3rd in the tour, etc. He’s got quite a track record…maybe not as a “mentor”, but he gets results from his team and he’s clearly focused on the leader. No idea if this translates into an Andy win at all…but Andy could do worse (and I say this as a non-JB fan).
by JustJoshinYa on Dec 13, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, I guess thinking about him as a mentor of young riders wasn't quite right.
JB does have pretty amazing credentials when it comes to delivering wins on the big stage with a leader-focused team.
JB lack of "experience" in the mentor department could be the reason why
Kim Andersen is still on the team’s payroll. Perhaps JB sees a need for a soft daily mentor at this point until the new regime is fully operational.
Bruyneel wasn't in the car for Savoldelli's giro
but, say what you will about “preparation,” that Vuelta win with Heras might have been Bruyneel’s best d.s. job.
Reduced Saiz to a total melt-down that got him kicked off the race the day before the final t.t.
(Which reminds me . . . Andy Schleck should beg for last stage mountain time trials . . .)
9 Tours wasn’t it?
7 Armstrong. And 2 Contador? (2007 and 2009)?
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Dec 14, 2011 6:07 AM EST up reply actions
Bruyneel and Contador were on different teams in 2009
They had the same jersey but different teams none the same. :-)
by Jens on Dec 14, 2011 8:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, how about Horner's huge step up in 2010 under Bruyneel?
Is that a JB effect, or just he suddenly found what he could do, in his late 30s?
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 14, 2011 9:01 AM EST up reply actions
I was going to mention Horner up above, but to me, he's always had loads of talent and ability...
I’d say “late bloomer”, but that doesn’t quite tell the story either. He just seems to like to work for others and I wonder if his breakout 2010 is more about the lack of a dominant leader on that team then his being mentored into such results. I personally think he’s always had it in him…but maybe he lacks that killer instinct. (but, and this should be my signature – What do I know?)
by JustJoshinYa on Dec 14, 2011 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
Horner was doing a nice job at LBL before hooking up with JB
He always had it in him to ride well in 3 week races – I don’t think Bruyneel had any hand in his good showings other than maybe giving him an opportunity to do so (by default, injury to others, or anything else).
All I've had today is, like, six gummy bears and some scotch.
+1
he used to place pretty well while helping cadel.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
With the greatest of respect, i just don't see that from his results
I mean, granted Horner was working for other riders beforehand, but his 2010 palmares are a huge jump for him. He might have had the potential be there, but it’s like he was a different rider. It could be having the chance to ride lead, but look: http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=196&year=0&all=1¤t=0
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Dec 14, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
2007 is most similar to 2010 in terms of races entered (race days); And in '07 he was a worker for Cadel.
Points in ’07: 572
Points in 2010: 1141
Riding largely for himself in 2010, IMO, it’s not all that hard to imagine a doubling of points. He’s no longer working for another. I think 2011, ’08, and ’09 are not comparable to his 2010 because race day differences are rather large (at a glance).
by JustJoshinYa on Dec 14, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
that said - I think success for Horner was LONG overdue - he's talented.
(I just hate that he’s on Radiowhetevertheyarecalled…)
by JustJoshinYa on Dec 14, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
+1
always been a huge fan of his, mostly due to the interviews he gives. super knowledgeable about all aspects of racing it seems. and that pic of him giving another racer a ride to the finish line says a lot about him as a person i think.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Nah, Horner had the talent long before JB.
His, is just an unfortunate career. He decimated the American peloton for years, but his first transition to European racing did not go well at all, for whatever reasons. He returned again with Saunier Duval, and did a little better. But, it’s just some psychological fact about Horner that it has taken him essentially 10 years to transition comfortably to big leagues. Shame. If Horner had had a smoother transition, with a team like Garmin, he’d have been a much bigger player in Europe.
by Le Sprinteur on Dec 14, 2011 9:40 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
His first time overseas he had a real hard time adjusting to not being in America, everyday things not being as easy, etc. His years at Saturn were ample displays of the talent he has and eventually showed off once he got to Lotto. Growing up and becoming more professional helped too.
All I've had today is, like, six gummy bears and some scotch.
Andy just needs to do a few more stretching exercises...
limber up a bit more, then he can win the TT.
After that, he can give Cavendish some weight-loss tips, and Cav can win the TdF!!!
I’ve heard that this cycling business is difficult. Maybe that means that not everybody can be brilliant at everything.
‘Brilliant’, after all, is the word we need. Evans and Contador (and maybe Wiggins) can ride brilliant TTs – maybe not as brilliant as Martin and Cancellara, usually, but nonetheless still brilliant. Andy can ride an OK TT. A better-than-OK TT, even, though maybe in part because most people weren’t trying. But 17th is hardly rubbish.
So, we’re saying Andy has to be brilliant at both climbing and TTing to win the Tour. OK, but surely that’s not easy? Look at the history of the Tour – how many people have ever been brilliant at both the TT and the big climbs? Not brilliant at the TT and limit-your-losses good on the climbs, but actually brilliant at both. Now discount those who doped, or at least who doped with the massive EPO levels that would be spotted today. Now, of these double-geniuses, how many of them started out brilliant at climbing and bad at TTing and managed to make themselves brilliant at both? And discount the dopers, and yes, I’m including Contador in that.
It seems to me that being at the top of two disciplines like that is an extremely rare thing. Either Andy has it or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t have it, he needs to make the most of what he HAS got. When people say “he needs to concentrate more on TTing”, I think “no, he needs to concentrate more on climbing”. For a man with one card, he waited a long time to play it. First, he could have attacked more and earlier – even if it was just to grab ten seconds here and ten seconds there. Second, he needs to try to improve his descending – not to be brilliant, but to be adequate (which I think may be mostly psychological – he seemed too frightened on the road to Gap). Third, rather than mastering the TT he could try to improve his form on smaller hills – he’s an explosive rider anyway, it shouldn’t be impossible. He lost over 10 seconds on the Mur de Bretagne. On Stage 16, even before the terrible descent, he was broken by Contador’s attacks. He lost the Tour by 1 minute 30, and if you put those two stages together that’s 1 minute 10 of it right there. In hindsight, he could have won this Tour even with his current level of TTing.
Frankly, I’d prefer to watch him use his strengths better, rather that watch him trying to be a ‘perfect’ ‘allround’ rider. It seems to me that too many riders who are good at one thing throw it away by trying to be a perfect GT rider – and it seems that almost universally that goal requires doping.
As for recon prep – well, maybe it would get him 10 seconds, maybe it wouldn’t. I wouldn’t bet on it. Sport is as much about psychology as about physicality. If you take an athlete who thrives on routine and pressure and discipline and give him a free rein, he’ll fall apart; and likewise, if you try to hard to impose routine and discipline and pressure on a rider who relies on being spontaneous and laid-back – well, you might improve him, or you might just crack him up.
Finally, why don’t we turn it around? Suppose Andy hadn’t lost time to Gap, had snatched a few seconds here and there along the way, and had held onto another 15 or 20 seconds in the TT. Would we now be saying about Cadel, “I guess he’s OK in the mountains, but he needs to be brilliant! Sure, he held on most of the time, but he lost major time to Schleck on the Galibier, and he didn’t make a significant attack all race long. He needs to make explosive attacks on steep climbs – that’s what Schleck does, and he wins Tours! Surely learning to be explosive and aggressive in the high hills is easy enough to learn, if he just worked hard enough at it?”
Of course, Cadel is never going to be a Schleck or a Contador. Not unless he turns to EPO. Everybody has to work with what they’ve got.
by Wastrel on Dec 13, 2011 4:23 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Big piece of π to you
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Dec 13, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
dont really see that AS needs to be brilliant at the TT
just better than he currently is – it is not just DDIFP sniping, but his own words in the CN article IP linked to:
"I know I’m lacking in the race against the clock. I have to gain power and strength and I have already started working on it. Not to mention my position on the bike that is not necessarily the best. The aim is to do weight training and spend time in the wind tunnel. I cannot lose the Tour again because of a time trial."
Counter intuitive to say doing a recce of a TT course cant help – it has to doesn’t it? The same way a recce of hills and descents are assumed to help, and it is known he does those. Is it the only thing that can help? No, but it could. Jens has linked to video that shows AS is continuing the process of becoming a better TT exponent – something that he has been doing for several seasons. Naive to assume he doesn’t have access to the best possible help to improve.
He is now fair-to-middling at it, but not good enough. That can be determined from the race results. And he has another problem – Evans is currently a better climber than Schleck is a TTer (and Contador is arguably better at both than both)
Another way of crunching the numbers from this years tour is that AS was at the foot of the Galibier with a four minute lead over the other bigs, ended up 2 and bit minutes ahead at the top over Evans (and nearly four over Contador – so he climbed the Galibier at the same speed as Contador basically). He didn’t gain a metre the next day on Alpe D’Huez over his main challenger – and didn’t look able to either.
Either that confirms the hypotheses if he could do better breakaways/attacks on the big stuff he can win the tour regardless of his TT improving or not – or it goes to the renewed importance of the TT in a GT contested by a cleaner peleton, due to the difficulties of executing sustained superior efforts in the mountains to win time.
I should also add while I'm at it...
…two things.
First, I don’t like Andy, as a person or as a rider. Not sure why, really. But I think that some of the attacks on him here go a bit over the top.
Second, of course, what Andy really needs to do is pay other riders to crash into Contador, and/or bribe WADA to ban him for life. I think this year was a freak event – Contador over-exerting himself in Italy, combined with an unfortunate crash in the first week. Even with these two things together, he was still rising like a Terminator in the third week, too late and too weak to change the result but still sending out a terrifying message for next year. Contador won’t make those mistakes again, and if he’s on form and not banned, I don’t see how any terrestrial rider can ever beat him. [I’m hoping that the strange route next year might, just might overcome him – but then, if it overcomes Contador, Andy’s got even less of a chance.] Debating what Andy needs to do or not do to beat Cadel will in the long run prove to be something of a moot point, I fear.
the only reason for debating the possibility of andy beating cadel, moot as it may be come next year,
is that it is just that, a possibility. as you say, him beating bert is almost inconceivable, as i don’t think andy does anything better than bert. team strength seems to be his only advantage.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
"i don’t think andy does anything better than bert."
really? bertie’s better at just about everything. better tt’er, more explosive climber, bolder tactically. he thrashed everyone in 2009 and half his own team were working for someone else!
sorry mate I like your posts but that’s nonsense.
nonense
perhaps you want to re-read what you just wrote?
"I’m pretty disappointed, but if this is what people want to see, a race decided on a downhill," Andy Schleck said. "I don’t think that. A finish like this should not be allowed."
+1, unless my comprehension skills have totally deserted me.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
we'll just have to disagree to agree on this one :)
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
by ant1 on Dec 13, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
comment of the week
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Dec 13, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
one thing, the 2012 tdf par cours is quite similar to the 2007 tdf par cours, and actually plays toward conta's strengths
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
just re-watched the time trial in question
And . . . Andy Schleck lost gobs of time on the descents and through every technical section.
He should have reconned the course.
He also should have ridden his time trial bike enough, to y’know, actually be able to ride it fast.
As for his position, whatever he’s doing with his back and core is preventing him, from, at a minimum, breathing properly.
Now, we had a version of this discussion last year with Gesink . . .
Watch the documentery upthread that Jens posted if you get a chance...he seems to be taking the TTing seriously (from what we can see)
Stretching, wind tunnel and riding the track to maximize power & position…we do not know how long/often he rides his TT bike in training
by Vlaanderen90 on Dec 13, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Indeed
there’s some chatter in Sporza about Bruyneel coming in with “ideas” for the Schlecks.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Dec 13, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
Once I clear out the bazillion papers and things and grade
oh . .. who am I kidding. I’ll probably watch it tomorrow . . .
It would be cool if A Schleck could get this set of problems solved. More better racing is mo better.
Gesink
too painful to revisit. Maybe I’ll light another incense stick. Or make a donation to the Gods of Road Furniture.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Dec 13, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Gesink and Schleck are quite similar.
They’re quite heavy for climbers (just under 70 kgs), so theoretically they should be able to push the Watts for a good TT. But they’re also tall, lanky, inflexible, and unaerodynamic.
by blackswangreen on Dec 14, 2011 4:42 AM EST up reply actions
kloden talks about the schleck’s brotherly racing style.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
shlecks'
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I'm new here.
What does “DDIFP” mean? I’m trying to work through some possibilities.
1. Dilettantes Dablling In Fan Posts?
2. Dumb Dipsheeits (with) Ignorant Fan Posts?
3. Dumb Dipsheeits Insisting (on) Fukced Propositions?
4. Dottering Dunces In Fandom Ponticating?
5. Distressed Druids Investigating Foul Play?
6. Dashing Drunks Inveighing For (more) Porn.
Argh. This could go on for awhile.
it comes from a quote from cavendish
who was complaining about internet forum people: “daylight deprived internet forum people” = us.
Here's a couple of
handy posts about the unique PdC Lexicon: Part 1 and Part 2.
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Dec 16, 2011 7:50 AM EST up reply actions
all of the above
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Dec 16, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
andy interview
with some questions on his time-trialing issues
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Celebrate the Giro d'Italia at Podium Cafe!
Check our Giro Section for race updates, on-the-scene reports, and other hijinx.
Featured Stories
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
