Free Fuyu Li!
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 3:47 PM EST
in News
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PrintLike, right fricking now.
Fuyu Li's case is as follows: Li, a 32-year-old rider for Radio Shack, tested positive for clenbuterol during 2010 Dwars door Vlaanderen. The amount of clen in his system was in the range of 0.05-0.10 nanograms, approximately the same minute amount in the Contador case, and like Contador Li disputes any intention to dope. Unlike Contador, Li comes from a country (China) where clenbuterol routinely does occur in meat, so if anything his defense that he accidentally ingested clen through normal food rings particularly true.
Logic... or attempted logic, on the flip:
Li was suspended by Radio Shack, as is the ordinary reaction, and there have been mutterings about the Chinese cycling federation imposing a two-year ban. I have googled the matter several times and can't turn up any evidence of the Chinese federation taking action. It does appear he was fired by Radio Shack in August following the B-sample.
Li is the epitome of a powerless rider. He's not an up-and-coming star, his federation is a minor player in most respects (apart perhaps from probably owning the debts of all the other federations), and he has no current team. Nobody is going to fight for him, except maybe at home where he was a star. Perhaps the Chinese federation was waiting for a precedent to work with and will follow along with what Spain just did.
If they do not, or worse, if the UCI accepts the Contador decision but pursues punishment for Li, then the sport is little better off than it was in the freewheeling doping days of yore. Just my opinion, as usual, but a big part of the challenge is for cycling to remove the cynicism exemplified by, say, Landis as discussed in his Kimmage interview [shorter Floyd: resistance was futile], that there's no point in trying to fight an unjust system. If the "system" (can you even call it that?) continues to treat Alberto Contador differently than Fuyu Li, then it's as messed up as it was when Hein Verbruggen allegedly made positive tests disappear for certain guys. The next person to come along and implore us fans to believe should consider this matter. And this. And this.
Right now, China has the chance to set things partially right, though for amends to be complete I think Radio Shack should reach out to Li, after prematurely zapping his career. Then we'll see if the UCI has any sense of justice or at least consistency.
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Really if anything, it is Li who should have the shortened suspension (1 year) and AC who should at least serve the same (1 year) if not the full 2
since Li’s argument is actually more credible than AC’s.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Credibility has nothing to do with it
Shortened suspension is if you rat out others. Right?
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
credible in that China uses clen for cattle. Spain has outlawed it since when, the 90s?
Sounds more credible to me.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Yeah, I know that
But credibility of the argument ‘normally’ has nothing to do with it (says the UCI. Then again, they say so many things)
- Guilty = 2 years
- Innocent = 0 years
- Guilty but helping others get busted = shortened suspension
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
ok, I got you now.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Completely separate rules
There is leeway to shorten a sanction in cases where the athlete accidentally got a forbidden substance in his/her body.
My bags are guaranteed sand-free.
I stand corrected.
Iljo’s case makes less sense by the minute.
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
right.. ask Tom Zirbel about that one.
Anyone who has every thought a working Photojournalist has a glam job needs to rethink...
by Christopher See on Feb 16, 2011 3:29 AM EST up reply actions
Zirbel's case was weaker though
Given that he couldn’t even suggest WHAT was contaminated, no?
by Sarah Connolly on Feb 16, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
Hate to say it, but Z didn't have a case...
…sucks to be him, but dude had no evidence to support his claims. None.
sounds familiar to someone else I know. Contador. Cough. Cough.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Then there was Moninger
who went to great lengths to put it on the supplements he took (didn’t he have a set of unopened jars from the same batch, just for this purpose?) but they didn’t find any contamination..
dunno
Shortened suspensions are the subject of prosecutorial discretion, a favor for a favor. This is an actual defense to the charge, which if successful should mean 0 punishment, at least by the modern (today) standard.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
PLAYOFFS? YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PLAYOFFS? PLAYOFFS?
I am sorry Chris but ,
UCI has any sense of justice or at least consistency.
I can’t believe that came from your computer. No matter what the UCI says they can’t help but be inconsistent because they’ve been inconsistent for years and years now. There s no way from where we are now to get to consistency. There are too many people and organizations involved in cycling that either have no interest in building the sport or are actively antagonistic towards it to develop consistency. Many people have a stake in keeping cycling down.
The sport is broken. I suppose that in theory it could be rebuilt. There are people who would like to do that. I just don’t see those people doing that at this time.
by ursula on Feb 15, 2011 4:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
CAS will fix it.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
i.e. make it all right
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Chris Anker Sorenson is a great rider and there's no evidence he has ever doped.
He’s not part of the problem.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
Maybe I should have put a smiley in there for you to know I was being sarcastic. Well partly. ;) They did get the Valverde case right.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Got the Valverde case right...
… followed immediately by a non-sensical suspension dating.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
I'm back and forth on this one...
…I think CAS might be the only institution actually trying to apply various federation’s rules in a consistent way as they were written. I’m fairly sure that the fact that it takes CAS to do this is incredibly, incredibly bad.
No matter what the UCI says they can’t help but be inconsistent because they’ve been inconsistent for years and years now.
Surely to keep being inconsistent they should now become consistent.
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
text McQuaid
I bet he’d appreciate this logic. I heard he thought Catch-22 was a biography.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
You think if I had his number
he wouldn’t be weeping in a corner somewhere?
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
How do you know
he isn’t?
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
I have my sources
you can’t prove Black Unicorn and I know each other. You just can’t.
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
Pfft
whatever. Take away the White Unicorn’s designer hay and she’ll talk. In like 2 seconds.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Just putting it out there, but maybe Fuyu is just as guilty as I assume Bert is?
I picked Riccardo Ricco for my 2011 VDS team, and submitted said team well before the submission deadline. I fully understand the error of my ways, and plead with the VDS Gods to allow me to resubmit my team.
if he (Li) was going to dope ti get an edge, why use clen? It isn't like he was at the top of the sport and just
needed that little edge to beat a pesky Schleck from winning. If you need help by doping, why not go for the big things like EPO or CERA?
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
right
and a microdose too. My point is, he’s at least as innocent as Conta.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Yep I would agree he is at least as innocent as Conta, if not more so.
1 year anniversary for Li’s suspension is coming up next month. Wonder if he will be “freed” by then?
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
based on what we know
publicly. Privately… who knows?
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure I follow the logic
If one doper gets off on a technicality or because they have a lenient national federation, then all dopers under similar circumstances should be afforded the same opportunities to game the system?
Under the current regulations, it seems Fuyu and Zirbel were handled the appropriate punishment for their actions. Just because the Spanish process was an absolute sham doesn’t mean we should go back and turn the other two cases into a sham as well.
I picked Riccardo Ricco for my 2011 VDS team, and submitted said team well before the submission deadline. I fully understand the error of my ways, and plead with the VDS Gods to allow me to resubmit my team.
the point is
why does Contador get preferential treatment? If the Spanish proceeding was a sham, then the UCI has to fight it tooth and nail. If they don’t, then they legitimize it… in which case, why does Contador get preferential treatment?
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
He gets preferential treatment for the same reason Lance did
The national federation and UCI determined the rider was “too big to fail” for cycling to thrive, so they gave special treatment. It’s a farce and I loathe it, but I don’t think it’s a rallying cry for other convicted dopers to be freed or their suspensions shortened.
I picked Riccardo Ricco for my 2011 VDS team, and submitted said team well before the submission deadline. I fully understand the error of my ways, and plead with the VDS Gods to allow me to resubmit my team.
OK
but I guess I was trying to call attention to the need for consistency as a prerequisite to credibility in the whole doping fight. Li’s case can follow its own path, I suppose, but it would weaken the doping fight to have a two tiered system.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
+1
I think that’s especially important in the light of some of the things Landis spoke about in the Kimmage interview. For riders to choose not to dope they have to believe that the system isn’t rigged to support the successful or star dopers.
If they are led to believe that the system will protect them as long as they’re big enough a name in the sport and play ball, then they’d (almost) be crazy not to go all-in and dope away.
And the UCI failed… on all accounts. - tgsgirl
by omnevelnihil on Feb 16, 2011 6:31 AM EST up reply actions
I wonder where Zirbel would be if he hadn't tested positive.
His spot on Garmin may have been very precarious during the Garmin-Cervelo merger.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
Maybe clen was used to cut weight, or maybe it was used as part of a doping cocktail
I picked Riccardo Ricco for my 2011 VDS team, and submitted said team well before the submission deadline. I fully understand the error of my ways, and plead with the VDS Gods to allow me to resubmit my team.
Maybe
Maybe the UCI only exists in my current nightmare and one day I get to wake up….. Maybe
Maybe I can ride my bike tomorrow…. Maybe
Some people are born to be spectators, some people are born to make a spectacle and some are born to be mere fans.
If this is a dream
Can we go to sleep in it and concoct another dream where we fire McQuaid and replace him with Ettore Torri?
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 16, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
I liked the conspiracy theory re Li's clen bust
about him being used as team guinea pig… Actually, it’s a conspiracy too far, even for me, but it is an interesting interpretation…
by Sarah Connolly on Feb 16, 2011 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
I dare those cowards to sue Landis in the U.S.A.
Landis said then that both presidents and the UCI sanctioned some riders while protecting others, with the aim of influencing races and the sport itself, and thus creating champions to suit the UCI’s interest.
… because if they sued him in the U.S.A., they would have to prove that what Landis said above is not true. Go ahead, Hein, show us the proof.
MJB
Yeah
that threat is about as hollow as my Litespeed frame. As you say, bring it on! Also, regarding Floyd, my torts prof used to say “you can’t get blood from a turnip.”
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
hahaha, nice
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
One thing,
0.05 nanogram it is not the amount of clenbuterol in his system, it should be a concentration of 0.05 nanogram per millilitre of blood (right? Not urine, I think?). So the total amount in his system is about 4500 times that.
what he said
I outsource all my scientific facts. For safety’s sake.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
love this site. Not only do I get educated about cycling but also about law, science, medicine, cooking...etc.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
I realize Li is from China,
but wouldn’t he have had to actually be in China shortly before he tested positive for his contamination claim to be stronger than Contador’s?
Dwars Door Vlaanderen was on March 24 last year. What’s the likelihood Li was in China so deep into the European racing season?
I seriously doubt Radioshack was importing Chinese beef for Li to eat in Belgium.
Dunno
but the link with the people involved has them talking about meat in China, so maybe he was there?
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
could be.
He probably didn’t have a heavy European racing schedule, so maybe DDV was his first Euro race last year.
by Susie Hartigan on Feb 15, 2011 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Per CQ it was
although they don’t catch every race everywhere. And maybe he lives in Spain all year, for all we know, but my guess is he was in China at some point.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
I seriously doubt Radioshack was importing Chinese beef for Li to eat in Belgium.
You’ve obviously never had bitterballen.
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
something tells me I don't want to know what that is ;-)
by Susie Hartigan on Feb 15, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
It's very tasty
Just never ever question what you’re eating. Ever.
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
they are delicious
that’s all you need to know
the ball part of bitterballen
gives me an idea.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I thought the thing about clen was it has a very short working life, too
so something you take the day before, not months?
by Sarah Connolly on Feb 16, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
it can help you lose fat and get down to race weight. i.e weight loss
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
there might be other effects besides the weight loss such as this
“Clenbuterol is abused for its ability to alter body composition by reducing body fat and increasing skeletal muscle mass. It is typically abused by athletes and bodybuilders at a dose of 60-120 µg per day. It is often used in combination with other performance enhancing drugs, such as anabolic steroids and growth hormone.”
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/clenbuterol.htm
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
One other question, what tour GC rider eats a big steak the night before one of the most important stages in the TdF?
Do riders typically eat steak while they are in the middle of a 3 week Tour?
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
i can't find the link but someone did the math on how much beef injected with clen you would need to eat
to have the levels that AC had. It was fairly large from what I remember.
But that is besides the point. Who eats a steak the night before an important race?
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Roger De Vlaeminck ate a lot of steak, even on the morning of P-R
and he ate a lot of cake too the few days before.
by Vlaanderen90 on Feb 15, 2011 4:56 PM EST up reply actions
dunno
ever heard of dietary sandbagging? “Oh, I shouldn’t have just eaten that steak.”
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
why does he hate peace?
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 5:11 PM EST up reply actions
OMG!
Adrie van der Poel use “I ate a racing pigeon” as a defence once, to explain why he tested positive.
I could have sworn I read a statement that...
he had shared the meat with his teammates. Then I read that he alone ate it.
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
He ate with all his non-Vino teammates that night (allegedly, of course)
Hence why he was the only one who tested positive. (Vino was tested, but didn’t eat it. The others didn’t eat it)
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
I think you meant Vino was tested, but didn't eat it.
The others that ate it, weren’t tested.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
A lean filet would be pretty tasty 2 weeks into a Tour when your body is metabolizing itself.
by Vlaanderen90 on Feb 15, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
riders usually carbos before a race because they are much easier to digest.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Well yeah, I know that...but did he eat the steak in the morning?
A small steak wouldn’t surprise me really.
by Vlaanderen90 on Feb 15, 2011 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
I think the dietary needs of a grand tour cyclist are unlike any other physical activity
I don’t think the standard carb loading is necessarily the answer.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
"I don't care what you prepare for me, chef,
just make it bloody!"
rest day
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
oops, i meant to post, iirc, he ate the beef the night before the rest day
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
This is his fault
he is not Spanish, clearly his fault, if he were Spanish then this would be a moot point. So blame his parents more like.
"I just want to say fuck you, and I mean that in the most professional way" -Brandon Llyod
SAVE CHAUNCEY!!!!
Fed up with all this. :-(
"There is nobody doing it for the money. Everybody is doing it because they want to ride bikes." Lizzie Armitstead
Add Alessandro Colo to that
I think they all should get 2yrs then reduced to 1. If we’re going to deviate from that, then Colo and Li get less than Contador.
Since Contador currently has no sanction, I believe that means the UCI currently owe Li and Colo race days….
The answer is not 'Free Fuyu Li'
It’s ‘Ban Contador’. Two wrongs will not make this right.
The hypocrisy is, of course, galling, but even so.
by Drongo on Feb 15, 2011 5:33 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
+1
I picked Riccardo Ricco for my 2011 VDS team, and submitted said team well before the submission deadline. I fully understand the error of my ways, and plead with the VDS Gods to allow me to resubmit my team.
I do completely agree...
and unfortunately, I feel that the Chinese federation will have nothing of it.
Just curious. Is it really NANO… and PICO…
if so, that means there was some 1000 times the concentration of Clen in Li’s system vs Contador, if I remember my prefixes from math correctly.
That doesn’t mean much to me, but it is a massive distinction in concentration.
right... right? what?
right, so 1000 times the concentration in Li as in Contador.
I only bring it up because I wonder at what level people could stop saying “That volume could have come from the water supply”
But it hasn't come from the water supply, has it?
Else every other rider would be testing positive for it, not just two or three.
"There is nobody doing it for the money. Everybody is doing it because they want to ride bikes." Lizzie Armitstead
That's not my point
I was just wondering about threshold tests for the future.
We have no idea where it came from… maybe even Contador and Li don’t as well.
I understand perfectly your point.
But the point about threshold is that they assume a low amount is of no use/benefit.
"There is nobody doing it for the money. Everybody is doing it because they want to ride bikes." Lizzie Armitstead
or sorry...wrong
I was going on the .10 Nano difference…. which is double? Ah whatever… I don’t care.
No, Contador had 50 pico (grams per millilitre)
while Li had 0.050-0.010 nano (grams per millilitre) which is the same as to twice that of Contador.
both of which
were well below what was previously considered detectible. Not that evading detection is good, but … it’s a small amount.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions
Do we even know the details of the Li case?
Again, I think people are not seeing the forest here.
It’s a specious argument that Contador being pardoned and Li being fired means that there is some MASSIVE hypocrisy and corruption at play.
Did Li present his case to the Federation?
Did the Chinese Federation investigate it?
Has he even been sanctioned?
etc.etc.
Perhaps Colo is a better example.
I don't think
I made those arguments. I said they’d better get it right, or else it would constitute hypocrisy. We also know that Li has a far more valid defense since clen contamination is rampant in China compared to Spain. So why would he be punished if Contador is not?
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
This is a strong argument
Presumably Li’s representation will make them.
Contador could be doing a great service to Li.
Do I need to worry about my local
All-you-can-eat Chinese?
Cos they got a £8 offer on right now and I’ve a day off next week…
dunno
Do you live in China? Otherwise, pork isn’t usually shipped long distances, at least not to other pork-producing countries.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
Now...
if the issue is heart disease… stick to the regular menu.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
I believe the frozen interesting bits in the asian stores are imports.
Ears and “bung” and various organs. In fact, the local fish market (which also sells everything else) has frozen rabbits from China. Who’d think you’d need to ship a rabbit, of all things, around the globe, as hard as it is to stop them from procreating?
"dumped for Greipel?!"
Ha!
Well, maybe their rabbits are tastier. I can check with Seattle Wildlife Control, they’d know.
Seriously though, imported stuff bears some chance of testing. Or have we successfully defunded FDA?
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 16, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
getting there
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
My all you can eat is $8.95 in DC.
The have those red colored ribs on Saturdays!
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
I think most telling is...
the deafening silence of the peloton on Twiiter.
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
Boonen
spoke to reporters saying he can’t understand why Contador got off. Not sure who else has spoken up.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 15, 2011 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Oh and I'm sure that Contador will be giving him the cold shoulder from now on.
He won’t be asking Tommeke to go “South of the Border” anytime soon!
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
I saw that
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 16, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
The South of the Border sign in the background of one of the panels is hilarious!
Driving from DC to The Keys and back, we were treated to miles of SoB signage each way! MILES!!!
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
Myerson
(not a ProTour rider)
@Beazed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcx9BJRadfwsource
From which:
There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious—makes you so sick at heart—that you can’t take part.
Hm
did he have Bert on his VDS team?
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 16, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions
So when Is Cav going to speak up about how Contador should go to jail and get it up the hole?
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
That would make...
standing next to him at the end of the next TdF in Paris, when the jersey winners all stand on the podium together, very uncomfortable.
Racing for Victory and Free Beer!
If anyone can do it with aplomb it's Cavendish
He and Robbie McEwen are two riders who could stand there boldly and feel uncomfortable with their previously vocal opinions. I’m still waiting for him to say something, anything about this case. I’m seriously hoping the Manx quote-machine doesn’t let me down.
It’s unsettling to see that there are plenty of riders voicing an opinion about radios but very few about doping (even without referencing individuals). Does it mean the teams have asked thme not to comment? I wonder what the big sponsors are thinking about their investment, particularly Saxo and Specialized.
I think the riders are genuinely torn
They want to condemn doping, but like Rodriguez commented – they are all afraid that with such tiny levels of chemical detection there could be an unjust career ending finding for any one of them. The amounts are so small and the possibility of contamination so real that they are afraid to speak when the doping facts aren’t clearer.
What are they supposed to say now – well you just have to trust the system? They can’t say anything when no-one knows if plasticisers are a factor and there are still appeals to come.
If you come out in support and say – great, its justice for protecting riders from non-negligent contamination and then on appeal the UCI or CAS points to blood doping you look like an idiot.
If you come out and say this is rubbish, he should be suspended, what do you do when its your turn to deal with a positive for accidentally inhaling marijuana smoke in a crowded dutch bar?
"Poorly thought-through ill-advised action, done swiftly " is our motto - Jens
However how many PT riders have been busted for Clen recently? Not that many right? AC, Li anyone else?
If contamination was a larger issue, you would expect n to be higher than it is.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
That's not the point
It doesn’t matter how frequently it happens, it matters whether the possiblity is a real one. It is right that the code has a defence (that Contador has apparently used) to allow no sanction where there has been no deliberate doping and no negligence. The case then turns on the facts – was this really a case of no-negligence, non-deliberate contamination.
When the other riders aren’t aware of the facts being argued as a defence, or those facts depend on detailed scientific evidence – it is very wise of them not to comment.
"Poorly thought-through ill-advised action, done swiftly " is our motto - Jens
so if it isn't happening a lot
how do you then tell a difference between accidental contamination vs. micro-dosing/full blown doping?
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
The frequency of these types of case will increase in the future simply
because foodstuff is contaminated and the doping tests will become better. The issue for me is this: can the anti doping bodies handle more cases? If yes, then WADA should continue to keep the zero threshold. If, however, the answer is no, then WADA needs to look into making thresholds.
When you say it isn't happening a lot
What is the testing frequency in the general population? How many riders are there being regularly tested for this – about 170? And how many of those are based in Spain?
I think the comparative stats can be measured in picograms as well
"Poorly thought-through ill-advised action, done swiftly " is our motto - Jens
I assume that when a rider is picked for a random doping control
their blood or urine sample goes through the whole battery of tests? But I don’t work the WADA/UCI so not sure what their testing schedule is and if they just pick different molecules to target or do everything.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Plus, if there IS evidence of a tainted cow somewhere, and it turns out to be all legit
(bear with me, it’s also a possibility!) then it also looks bad.
I guess a statement of “I haven’t seen all the evidence so can’t comment, but it’s great testing is improving so fast, and I hope all dopers are caught” would work…
by Sarah Connolly on Feb 16, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
+1
And it would help if all the personalities in racing took such a cool, calm collected response. There is not much journalistic value in that sort of story. If they really want to tame the media, they have to tame their own responses. Indignation and rage make stories, calm common sense rarely does.
"Poorly thought-through ill-advised action, done swiftly " is our motto - Jens
Who ultimately benefits from the spectacle (clean or otherwise)?
From uci.ch:
What is meant by “Official UCI partner”?
Official UCI partners are companies that enjoy an excellent reputation at an international level, whose backing contributes to the success of UCI activities. In exchange for their support, the UCI guarantees them certain exclusive marketing rights to its events.
Some people are born to be spectators, some people are born to make a spectacle and some are born to be mere fans.
Not that it matters much
but in China things doesn’t work that way…..I would never expect the Chinese ferderation to fight for him or anybody else.
this is easier than rbjhan i hope....
Now Contador gets to ride again
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Interesting at Feltet
Out of 28 tests taken from people who came back from China sometimes between September 15 and January 15, 22 tested positive for Clenbuterol. The lab in Köln did the analysis.
Found an article in English (though it mentions Contador, in a possibly stupid way).
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
Food contamination in China ≠food contamination in Spain/Europe.
Not sure how you can extrapolate that data out. Now if it went like this: “Out of 28 tests taken from people who came back from Spain…. 22 tested positive for Clen…” then there might be something there. China ≠ Spain.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Men are growing breasts from the amount of birth control pill residue in the water
The chemicals, they are everywhere. Not just clen.
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
now you are just over exagerating everything
How many men and where? Maybe it is because they are fat and sit infront of the TV don’t exercise.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Linky
This doesn’t include the breast thing
This does. Sort of.
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
that 2nd article is in rats
anything in humans?
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Probably, I don't know
I read it somewhere, but I just came off a ten hour shift and am too tired to google properly. Sorry.
I like tinkering with the boys.
- majope
So you want country specific thresholds?
Unrealistic in a global world.
Never said I wanted country specific thresholds
Just said that you can’t extrapolate data from China to Spain/Europe.
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Well, my point is that thresholds are coming and they will be global.
Just like the other thresholds for other types of substances. Moving forward it doesn’t matter where the test was performed.
Interesting regarding Spain's testing of Clen in cattle.
“In 2010, the authorities carried out 14,179 controls, and there was not one positive case for Clenbuterol.”
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
The problem with this test that is repeatedly being presented is . . . .
. . . this test DOES have a threshold and it is way higher then what would be theoretically needed to create a Doping Positive in an athlete!
So, every cow they tested could still theoretically have enough Clen to cause an athlete to test positive if they consumed the meat from that animal.
Also, the test does not clarify ‘frequency of inspection’ nor does it show the R&R of the test.
In many food tests like this, the frequency is actually very low and the R&R is not required to be perfect because the it only needs to be reliable ‘enough’ to protect the health of the population.
This test goal is far too different then to catch an athlete with 5 pictograms of a substance to indicate the possibility of using a banned substance in competition.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Free Fuyu Li … with every packet of beef burgers?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
What do Fuju and Bert have in common?
mmmmmm… Bruynel as Director …. very similar residues of clen
long shot but perhaps there is a doping protocol he recommends?
ie take out the blood after time on a training regime including clen?
"More accurately, the principle of Occam’s Razor recommends selecting the competing hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions"
meh
Neither one was a core Postal guy. Obviously Contador is public enemy #1. Li was stopping by the Shack for a couple years of support work and a little good PR in China where all of Radio Shack’s products are made.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Feb 17, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Frame & Forks – US.
Rims – US
Spokes – Swiss (DT I think)
Hubs – Swiss (DT I think)
Drivetrain – Mostly Taiwan, but the chain is from Portugal (all SRAM Chains come from Portugal)
Tires – Thailand (I think)
Saddle – Taiwan
Bar Tape – Taiwan
Handle Bar / Seatpost – China
Well, that is just what I can think of quickly . . . .
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
I read it as "the products RS (the company) sells"
rather than the bikey products…
by Sarah Connolly on Feb 18, 2011 5:40 AM EST up reply actions
actually, iirc, china was a potential discovery market...
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
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