Classics Vs Grand Tours: Which is more dopey? (Ding! Ding! Ding! Round 2!)
Chris asked an interesting question before Christmas: are the classics cleaner or dirtier than the Grand Tours, where doping is concerned? Finally I've decided to dig my manky anorak from out of the closet and look at what passes for empirical evidence in this sport.
First up, the Grand Tours and the relevant stats (note: hate numbers? Skip to the bottom of the page):
(CO = official UCI/whoever control, CJ = the justice authorities poking their noses into the sport.)
| Giro d'Italia | Tour de France | Vuelta a España | Totals | |||||||||
|
|
CO |
CJ |
All |
CO |
CJ |
All |
CO |
CJ |
All |
CO |
CJ |
All |
| 1960 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||||||||
| 1961 | ||||||||||||
| 1962 | ||||||||||||
| 1963 | ||||||||||||
| 1964 | ||||||||||||
| 1965 | ||||||||||||
| 1966 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | ||||||||
| 1967 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 4 | ||||||
| 1968 | 11 | 11 | 2 | 2 | 13 | 13 | ||||||
| 1969 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 5 | 6 | 6 | ||||||
| 1970 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||||||||
| 1971 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 4 | 7 | 7 | ||||
| 1972 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 4 | ||||||
| 1973 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | ||||||||
| 1974 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 7 | ||||
| 1975 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | ||||||||
| 1976 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 7 | 7 | ||||
| 1977 | 2 | 2 | 7 | 7 | 9 | 9 | ||||||
| 1978 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | ||||||
| 1979 | 4 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 6 | 6 | ||||||
| 1980 | ||||||||||||
| 1981 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||||
| 1982 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | ||||||||
| 1983 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 6 | 7 | 7 | ||||||
| 1984 | ||||||||||||
| 1985 | ||||||||||||
| 1986 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||||
| 1987 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 5 | ||||
| 1988 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 4 | ||||||
| 1989 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||||
| 1990 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||||
| 1991 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | ||||||
| 1992 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | ||||||||
| 1993 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||||
| 1994 | ||||||||||||
| 1995 | ||||||||||||
| 1996 | ||||||||||||
| 1997 | 5 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 6 | ||||||
| 1998 | 2 | 2 | 12 | 12 | 2 | 2 | 4 | 12 | 16 | |||
| 1999 | 5 | 1 | 6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 7 | 1 | 8 | ||
| 2000 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 6 | ||||
| 2001 | 5 | 42 | 47 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 42 | 48 | ||||
| 2002 | 6 | 3 | 9 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 8 | 4 | 12 | |||
| 2003 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 2 | ||||||
| 2004 | 3 | 4 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 7 | 4 | 11 | ||
| 2005 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 6 | 1 | 7 | ||
| 2006 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | ||||||||
| 2007 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 6 | 6 | ||||||
| 2008 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 6 | 7 | 7 | ||||||
| 2009 | 2 | 2 | 8 | 8 | 10 | 10 | ||||||
| 2010 | 1 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | ||||||
| Total | 62 | 50 | 112 | 88 | 21 | 109 | 37 | 0 | 37 | 187 | 71 | 258 |
| Gen-EPO | 36 | 50 | 86 | 33 | 14 | 47 | 19 | 0 | 19 | 88 | 64 | 152 |
For the purpose of this, Gen-EPO is the last twenty-one years, 1990 to date.
* * * * *
Some observations on the above:
First, and most obviously, these numbers are totally meaningless. Why? All sorts of reasons.
Let's begin at the beginning. As we have to begin somewhere, these stats start in 1960. Because that's when the UCI (blessings be upon them) banned doping. In the words of our former great leader, Hein Verbruggen: "In 1960, when no regulations dealt with the taking of doping substances, the sports federations that wanted to fight against the phenomenon were few and acted on an ad hoc basis. It was the UCI which was the first, without anything or anyone forcing it, to add a 'doping' article to its Sports Code." (40 Years Fighting Against Doping)
As I've previously pointed out the mis-representations in that statement I won't go into them again here. For the purpose of this analysis, what matters is that we accept 1960 as cycling's Year Zero. What happened before then was the past, and we built a bridge and got over it.
There is a problem with picking 1960 though: the UCI (blessings be upon them) didn't actually look for doping once they'd banned it. Those two busts in 1960? Accidental. One was Roger Rivière, who was caught with Palfium in his pockets after he Schlecked out of the Tour.
Dope testing proper only began in 1965 or so, when the French and Belgians brought in legislation. The French conducted tests at the 1966 Tour. At that stage, amphetamines were the drugs du jour, and that's what the testers looked for. And found. As Gilbert Bellone, Jean Dupont, Roger Millot, Guido Neri, Herman Van Springel and one other discovered.
As new tests were developed, more people were caught. 1974 proved to be a fun year, more at the classics that the Grand Tours, because a new test for Ritalin was introduced, catching quite a few riders on the hop. Something similar happened in '77, when Stimul could be tested for, which helps explain the spike in positives at the '77 Tour. The '82 Vuelta busts were for Ritalin, Spanish labs having been upgraded in preparation for their hosting the World Cup. The '83 Tour was the Nandrolone Tour. 2008 you'll remember as the year of the CERA Tour. 2002 had been the NESP and Aranesp Giro.
1997 we know saw the introduction of the H-test, which caught a few riders here and there. But the lack of positives in the years preceding '97 now looks interesting, because we've a pretty good idea of what was going on during them. One consequence of the H-test was to limit the amount of EPO used, which had the knock-on effect of turning riders to other products, sometimes ones which could be tested for. Or methods. Such as blood doping. Which could only be tested for in 2004, and even then not very effectively.
So all those gaps in the stats - clean years? If you want to be believe that, good luck to you. But really, to understand the stats, you need to know what's not being tested for. Without that knowledge, they're just numbers. Without that knowledge, you might believe in something like an Italian renaissance without acknowledging the rôle one or two doctors have played in the performances behind the scenes.
The years 1998 and 2001 stand out in the numbers above. The former was the year of the Festina affaire, the latter the Giro raids. Personally I find it interesting that judicial investigators in those cases caught more people than the official sport-sanctioned tests had been able to. The judiciary were kept out of future Tours, but maintained an interest in the Giro. They don't ever seem to have taken an interest in the Vuelta. Should those stats be included here? You decide.
If the total figure for busts at the Grand Tours over the first fifty-one years of anti-doping seems unacceptably high to you, consider this: those fifty-one years cover more than three-thousand days of racing. Seen in that light, are the numbers really all that high?
How many tests were carried out though? In the eighties, the testing was the GC leader, stage winner and two riders at random. At most four tests a day, could be three. And on the last day, only the maillot jaune would be tested. You could win the green jersey, or the KOM one, without once being tested. Typically, you had a better than fifty-fifty chance of not being tested during a Grand Tour. Over the years since the Delgado affaire, the number of tests conducted has increased.
Another problem arises when you consider confessions. They're not included here. Take Team Telekom for instance. How many of their riders came out and said either they doped all the time or for certain named races? Accounting for these is too difficult. So no confessions are in the above numbers. But you know of quite a few, I'm sure.
Nor am I including things like the 1999 re-tests. Life's too short.
Another reason to believe the numbers are understated is the difficulty of getting information. I'm using the numbers on Cyclisme Dopage, a pretty reliable source. They anonymised their data in 2006, but it's clear from the way they did it that new data has been added since then for old Grand Tours. The more they dig, the more they find. It's not like the UCI just makes all this information available to people at the click of a link. For a time in the nineties, they didn't even announce positives and it took a bit of digging by journalists to discover a rider got busted.
I'll throw in one other caveat, which relates to Gen-EPO. There is a narrow testing window for EPO. Most people seem to say three days or so. In the Grand Tours, because you're looking at three continuous weeks of racing, I would expect there to be more EPO busts than at single day races. So I don't think we're really comparing like with like.
* * * * *
Regardless of the above caveats, let's see how the numbers can help us answer Chris' original question: are the Grand Tours cleaner or dirtier than the classics?
By classics, I'm going to take that to mean the important single day races. The five Monuments (Milan-San Remo, the Ronde van Vlaanderen, Paris-Roubaix, Liège-Bastogne-Liège and the Giro di Lombardia) along with the key surviving classics (Het Volk, Ghent Wevelgem, the Flèche Wallonne, the Amstel Gold Race and Paris-Tours) and the World Championships (road and ITT). I'm not trying to deliberately skew the data one way or another and produce the result I want (I'm not sure what result I want) but I think that's a fair selection of single day races to compare with the three Grand Tours.
We could do a really dumb analysis, just look at the total number of offences at the Grand Tours and the total number of offences at the one day races. If that's what floats your boat, go for it, but me, I think we really need to be looking at offences as a proportion of racing days.
Now because I'm a lazy git, I'm guessing that all the pre 1988 Grand Tours were twenty-three days long, while after '88 it's twenty-one. That gives a figure of nearly three thousand four hundred racing days for all the Grand Tours, or about thirteen hundred for the Gen-EPO years.
Because we've got two types of offences at the Grand Tours - the UCI ones and the real world ones - we're looking at a range into which offences at the one day races need to fall. Below the lower end of the range and, in my best Hein Verbruggen impression, I'll declare the one day races clean. "The statistics prove it! The war on doping is won!" If, however, we get a result above the top end of the range, I think it'll be the volcanic Paul Kimmage I'll be impersonating.
So what's the range we're looking for? Looking at the whole of the last fifty-one years, it's thirty-two (UCI offences only) to forty-four (all offences). For Gen-EPO, the range should be sixteen to twenty-eight. What do you think it's going to be? Higher or lower at the one day races? Bang in the ballpark? Read on and all will be revealed.
Before that, one comment about the next data set. There's only one type of offence here, as the judiciary don't seem to raid the one day races. (Oh, all the caveats applied to the Grand Tour data also apply here. Probably more so.)
The races are: Het Volk, Milan-San Remo, the Ronde van Vlaanderen, Ghent Wevelgem, Paris-Roubaix, the Flèche Wallonne, Liège-Bastogne-Liège, the Amstel Gold Race, Paris-Tours, Giro di Lombardia and the World Championships - road and ITT.
| HV | MSR | RvV | GW | PR | FW | LBL | AGR | PT | GdL | WC RR | WC ITT | Total | |
| 1960 | |||||||||||||
| 1961 | |||||||||||||
| 1962 | |||||||||||||
| 1963 | |||||||||||||
| 1964 | |||||||||||||
| 1965 | |||||||||||||
| 1966 | 1 | 3 | 1 | 6 | 11 | ||||||||
| 1967 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 12 | ||||||||
| 1968 | 1 | 1 | 2 | ||||||||||
| 1969 | 1 | 1 | 2 | ||||||||||
| 1970 | |||||||||||||
| 1971 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1972 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 | |||||||||
| 1973 | 1 | 2 | 3 | ||||||||||
| 1974 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 7 | |||||||||
| 1975 | |||||||||||||
| 1976 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1977 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 7 | |||||||||
| 1978 | 3 | 3 | |||||||||||
| 1979 | 1 | 1 | 2 | ||||||||||
| 1980 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1981 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1982 | |||||||||||||
| 1983 | |||||||||||||
| 1984 | |||||||||||||
| 1985 | 1 | 1 | 2 | ||||||||||
| 1986 | 1 | 1 | 2 | ||||||||||
| 1987 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1988 | |||||||||||||
| 1989 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1990 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1991 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1992 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1993 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1994 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1995 | |||||||||||||
| 1996 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1997 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1998 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 1999 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4 | |||||||||
| 2000 | 1 | 1 | 2 | ||||||||||
| 2001 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 4 | |||||||||
| 2002 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 2003 | 1 | 2 | 3 | ||||||||||
| 2004 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 2005 | 4 | 4 | |||||||||||
| 2006 | 4 | 4 | |||||||||||
| 2007 | |||||||||||||
| 2008 | |||||||||||||
| 2009 | 1 | 1 | |||||||||||
| 2010 | |||||||||||||
| Total | 1 | 6 | 16 | 3 | 1 | 14 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 5 | 31 | 2 | 94 |
| Gen-EPO | 0 | 1 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 15 | 2 | 32 |
To remind you: for the offences to be in the same proportion as at the Grand Tours, for the whole of the last fifty-one years they should be in the range of thirty-two (UCI offences only) to forty-four (all offences). For Gen-EPO, the range should be sixteen to twenty-eight.
Ninety-four offences over fifty-one years?!? Fuck me! It's a disgrace! The single-day races are three times as dirty as the Grand Tours! There's a cancer in the classics!
Thirty-two offences for Gen-EPO alone?!? Christ on a bike! That's twice as bad as in the Grand Tours! I blame the UCI!
But ... the glass is half full, not yet nearing the time you need to nod at the barman for a refill. Look at Het Volk. Totally clean in the Gen-EPO years! Go Oomloop! And go the King of the classics too, the Giro di Lombardia. If Gilles Delion can win it, it proves it's a clean race. And isn't the symmetry of the season opening and closing with clean races just so wonderful?
* * * * *
Take what you will from the above numbers. But just remember all the caveats they come with. And remember: you can prove anything with statistics. I can even prove that the single day races are cleaner than the Grand Tours. All you need to do is massage the numbers to make them work for you.
For instance: per race, the expected positives are in the range of three to four for all the races since 1960 (ex the ITT), or one-and-a-half to two-and-a-half for the Gen-EPO years (ditto the ITT). So if you excluded the worst offenders - the Flèche (too Belgian), the Amstel (a Johnny-come-lately) and the Worlds (all those foreigners who can't even ride in a straight line without falling off) - the one day races could be declared cleaner than the Grand Tours. For the Gen-EPO years anyway. Too make it work for all of the last fifty-one years we'd need to kick out the Ronde as well. And that is so not going to happen.
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So just to be clear
We’re definitely not kicking out the Ronde? That’s good, right?
(and thanks for risking your soul by playing with the stats).
For this is cycling where suffering and success travel inseparably together - Jen See (poet)
Re assumption of comparison per racing day -
- Are the same number of riders typically tested after one stage of a GT
as compared to a one-day classic?
- If a rider is caught in a GT, often there are a series of positives which only count as one infringement; similarly, if a rider is kicked out “in running”, a statistical correction is required since subsequent tests would presumably have been positive were the rider still in the race
The number of multiple positives at one GT is actually rare, look at the CD data yourself and you’ll see.
Are the number of tests the same? Generally, we don’t know, partic for historic data. I think GT’s test more riders, because they’re testing GC and other classifications now, as well as the stage podium and randoms, whereas single day races – nowadays anyway – just do the podium and a couple of randoms.
In the abscence of data about the number of tests conducted, race days is the least worst choice.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:21 AM EST up reply actions
Palfium, Rivière, 1960
RE wikipedia, Palfium is a very strong, fast acting and highly addictive opiate painkiller whose side effects include a dangerous, “particularly strong tendency to induce respiratory depression.” The drug (in his body as well as his pocket) was blamed for Rivière not being able to figure out how to use his brakes (also via wikipedia).
I suppose anything can be part of a pot belge type mix in combination with a pile o stimulants—one for the performance, the other for the pain.
Arguably, it’s just as possible that the cyclist had become a doper / addict in the standard street sense of the word, and the drug was not even performance-enhancing. Note admitted prior use of amphetamines on the track. He may have started using Palfium to counter the effects of amphetamine addiction, and ended up with an arguably even stronger addiction.)
Worth noting, in the sense that many things are banned, including many that may be used / abused in ways that are not directly performance enhancing, or were not used with the intent of enhancing race performance (TB and the coke, e.g.).
"dumped for Greipel?!"
Many of the drugs used in those days – and prob still many used today – were not actually perf enhancing. The atheltes just think they are.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
Historically, don't the one day classics rack up a lot of abandons where a GT would not (because people obviously need to finish to continue on)...
So, assuming you are doped to the gills in a classic, but getting in some training miles…you set off, hammer on down the road and then abandon at the last feed for a nice training session – but don’t get caught.
Is this realistic at all?
Don’t they make DNFs continue to the finish by car to be part of the random testing pool?
If not, that’s a serious loophole.
do they? Not sure why, but I recall guys saying they ride home sometimes from races. Is that a joke or something?
by JustJoshinYa on Feb 28, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Chances of being a random draw are quite low
but nowadays you must check after the race to see if you were one of them, because if you are and you don’t show up you’ll be positive by default.
The names of the riders to be tested are posted quite early, so you generally know whether you have to report to antidopage or can go home.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:25 AM EST up reply actions
V realistic, yes, but once the randoms came in even abandons could be tested.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:23 AM EST up reply actions
Fun and Interesting but not useful really
I’m not sure this is useful at all. Perhaps more useful would just be the percentage of riders positive. It makes no sense to count every stage as an opportunity for everyone, yet for some stages yes. Plus current and past PEDs have varying effects. For some you are doping for a race, but for others you are doping for recovery/better training/building the aerobic base. Everything gets mixed together.
Plus most of the riders are the same in both sets of races. You would need to separate out the riders who did only one or the other to get any kind of comparison. It is the rider that is doping, not the race, so given the bad sampling, if a rider is busted at a tour, and not a classic, that means he is clean at the classic?
fmk did say, "First, and most obviously, these numbers are totally meaningless."
That said, the pictures seem to indicate the classics racers DO usually have the most mud on them (giro st 7 aside).
Sorry, I am trying the PdC conversation tactic about deflecting with humor…
by JustJoshinYa on Feb 28, 2011 1:11 PM EST up reply actions
but not useful really
I would have said totally fucking meaningless but that’s just me and I swear a lot.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:26 AM EST up reply actions
Perhaps more useful would just be the percentage of riders positive
Riders per race or riders per race day? Do you want to go back through all teh data and elmininate all the DNSs and DNFs and DQs each day at the GTs? Do you want to get the stats for starters and finishers in the one day races?
It makes no sense to count every stage as an opportunity for everyone, yet for some stages yes
With random testing it is an opportiunity for everyone, an opp to be to be caught.
Plus current and past PEDs have varying effects.
FFS what do you think this is, some kind of doctoral thesis? IT’s two or three hours of my life I’ll never get back, that’s all. And I think I’ve made abundantly clear the value I place on what it tells you.
Plus most of the riders are the same in both sets of races. You would need to separate out the riders who did only one or the other to get any kind of comparison. It is the rider that is doping, not the race, so given the bad sampling, if a rider is busted at a tour, and not a classic, that means he is clean at the classic?
You want to run that by me in English?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:30 AM EST up reply actions
Math here! Stats even!
What do you mean English? :-) We are talking stats, not English. Let’s get some bayesian models ready and go … well maybe not. You are basically making a statistical model of populations here where you want to answer a question == are the people from one population doping up more than the other? ==
The problem is the populations aren’t distinct. Not only aren’t they distinct the majority of each is in the other. So how many of the positives from the classics are riders who ride in the Tours and vice versa? To get separation of population values you have to look at the riders who are unique to each. Or make some kind of assumption that guys who dope for a grand Tour don’t for a classic. A dubious assumption at best.
I’m not actually trying to argue the pops are diff. I know they’re the same.
Look at some names from the one-day busts: Lucian Aimar, Rudi Altig, Kim Andersen, Jacques Anquetil, Niklas Axelsson, Franco Ballerini, Daniele Bennati, Laurent Brochard, Claudio Chiapucci, Mario Di Toro, Fabio Fontanelli, Walter Godefroot, Charly Grosskost, Bo Hamburger, Andreas Karstens, Roland Le Clerc, Marino Lejaretta, Clément Lhotellerie, Pascal Lino, Freddy Maertens, Eddy Merckx, Gianni Motta, Peter Peys, Willy Planckaert, Raymond Poulidor, Guido Reybrouck, Wim Schepers, Guy Sibille, Jean Stablinski, Willy Terlinck, Gert-Jan Theunisse, Dietrich Thurau, Jean-Luc Vandenbroucke, Italo Ziloli. Most of them have rdden a GT.
Yes, there is a prob with the GT pop, one I highlighted: you have more opportinity to catch them, patic for EPO, but also for other drugs. Look at Perico, Flandis, Conti, and how many negative tests they returned in their year. Look at the CERA boys. Is it worth wasting your time trying to work out how to account for this? Hardly. The numbers are, remember, meaningless.
Why you’d want to do what you’re suggesting I have no idea. Even if the numbers were meaningful I don’t see the sense of what you are suggesting.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 2, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
What question are you answering?
That is, The title of the article! If you want to answer that question you have to do something like I mentioned.
You haven’t actually read what I wrote, have you?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 3, 2011 3:31 AM EST up reply actions
What you said about Bayesian…mumble mumble… is inaccurate. It is equivalent to claiming that it is impossible to make a statistical test of whether (say) the size of human noses is correlated to the size of human ears, simply because the noses and ears are both located on the same human beings.
A statistical “population” is a technical term, it does not mean the same thing as a biological population. In this case, one population is [riders in classics] the second population is [riders in GTs]. PED testing protocols sample from each population and may in principle be used to estimate the proportion of each population that is doped. The estimates may then be compared to test whether the proportion in each population is significantly different.
I think everyone here (especially fmk in the article) agrees that the testing protocols are not adequate to make accurate estimates. But the statistical procedure is not invalid in principle.
A better analogy
would be the proportion of joggers that suffer heart attacks while jogging, compared to the proportion of swimmers that suffer heart attacks whilst swimming. This is a reasonable thing to test, even if some people both jog and swim.
I love it, thank you
The statistics, the geekery (in the nicest possible way) and the fact that the conclusion is that there’s no real conclusion! I like that, because the answer I take from it is that they’ve all been dirty, and that the bio passport, though not perfect, is a good step forward… esp in light of the convos we had at the time of Chris’ suggestion, about when the dope is taken and dodgy riders not necessarily being caught at the time when they were doped to the gills…
by Sarah Connolly on Feb 28, 2011 12:42 PM EST reply actions
Is fmk a geek or a nerd?
http://www.wikihow.com/Tell-the-Difference-Between-Nerds-and-Geeks
Cycling fanboyness => geek
Application of scientific method => nerd
I feel strongly that I am a nerd rather than a geek
and would take offence at the latter epithet
Makes me think of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:34 AM EST up reply actions
It's just my bad memory
I could have sworn that in this scene the cashier thinks that Woody is saying “I’ve got a gnu”
A Gerd? A Neek?
I thought geek could be applied to coneheads too?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:33 AM EST up reply actions
The statistics, the geekery (in the nicest possible way) and the fact that the conclusion is that there’s no real conclusion!
That’s all it’s meant to be saying.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:32 AM EST up reply actions
So all teh figures point to the early nineties being one of the cleanest periods in cycling
Isn’t it frustrating when all that number juggling leads to nothing. Thanks for doing it anyway.
i would say it shows that a new era started
and it took a while for the anti dopers to find out about, and then develop tests for, the new doping products.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
it took a while for the anti dopers to find out about, and then develop tests for, the new doping products
To find out about, I think it’s clear they knew from the get go. To develop tests for, I think its clear they didn’t want to.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:36 AM EST up reply actions
So all teh figures point to the early nineties being one of the cleanest periods in cycling
Apart from at the classics. 1995 is the stand out year in that period. Totally clean racing, all the time. Go 1995. Back to the future!
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:35 AM EST up reply actions
I realise that you pointed out lots of problems with the data...
… and that nobody is taking these numbers as gospel.
However, it is worth pointing out that across 12 races (and several types; sprinty, tt-y, cobbly and hilly) there are going to be a lot more riders than there are in 3 grand tours – even accepting that there are more people on each team in a GT.
If drug-use were standard across the sport, you’d expect to get more different positives (that is, positives for different people) in classics because you’d be testing a greater number of athletes, no?
Eredon, if you want to get the start lists and retweak the the data, go for it.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:38 AM EST up reply actions
Hells, no
I appreciate the effort you’ve put in, but I get enough data analysis in the day job, thanks. Just thought it was worth pointing out another complication in the comparison. Probably because I want to believe that the classics are cleaner than the GTs.
by EdredonBrowny on Mar 1, 2011 7:40 AM EST up reply actions
Or that stats can prove anything?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 1, 2011 7:43 AM EST up reply actions
Rather than trying to turn this into a doctoral theseis, I think it’s worth considering the diff between reality and perception. There’s the perception of the GT’s a dirtier than driven snow and the classics as purer than angels. Why is that?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
It is a question of belief vs knowledge
We know (or perceive that we know) that most GTs over the last 20 years or so have been affected by doping. We know doping happens in the classics too, but for the reasons that Chris laid out in his article, we can choose to believe that there is a different mentality and a greater purity for the one-day specialists. I imagine that the disproportionate press attention, in the Anglophone world, at least, makes it easier to ignore the doping instances away from the biggest stages.
by EdredonBrowny on Mar 1, 2011 8:21 AM EST up reply actions
For me, there's wishful thinking
there are some races I just love – some, like P-R for the romance most everyone understands, some (like women’s Ronde van Drenthe) for more personal reasons – and I don’t like things that hurt those races.
Wondering if the other thing is the fact that the GTs are seen as “big business”? (Yeah, I know, that’s a perception thing) – or the fact that – speaking personally here – there are the dodgy-seeming teams/riders go on about how only the TdF counts, whereas riders I really respect talk about certain Classics as if they are what counts above all… Again, my perceptions of corporate v personal
It’s interesting, though – the perception
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 1, 2011 8:41 AM EST up reply actions
God, I'm making less sense than usual...
apologies!
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 1, 2011 9:04 AM EST up reply actions
well . . . everyone knows that Museeuw's only PE strategy in those later classics
was to use 180 cranks.
Maybe GTs are victims of their own marketing.
I mean, they do sell themselves as the hardest races in the world (or even hardest sporting events). If it’s so hard, surely everyone is doping.
A classic – come on…it’s only one day. How hard can that be!?!?
:)
Storyline
GTs have it, easy to follow, every day, with the same protagonists for three weeks. Classics have a storyline too but there are only about 10 episodes a year with wildly varying characters. It’s more about the race than the racers.
+1
Because the positive doesn’t just affect one day, one race but the whole complicated narrative. So in a one day, you just pull the guy out and everyone moves up one, but in a GT, the knock on effects of other riders burning out trying to follow, etc., etc. are incalculable.
That’s what I’d run with. Also the saturation coverage of GTs.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 2, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Really? Wow (seriously)
I always thought LBL was the dirtiest race around. But I live way off and am probably skewed. Just my personal view, so there are people out here thinking differently.
Didn't Birnie say something similar about the Ardennes last year
Welcome to dope-week or something like that
Yeah but he can prob remember 74 and 77. Peeps like me have only read about it. He was prob there.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 2, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Dunnno
Because really, I think they’re all about equal. That is, the doping problem in cycling does not select for races. It is what it is at any particular time. So if riders are doping at a certain rate during one part of the season, I’m pretty much totally convinced they’re doping during the other parts, too.
The perception that the one day races are “easier” than the grand tours might be part of the answer to the image issue you raise here, though.
I think that's one of the big myths
“One day riders dope less”
“Sprinters dope less”
I think they’re both based entirely on fantasy.
"Gold medal, silver medal, bronze medal; for me, potato." - Emil Zatopek
How many sprinters have TUEs for asthma meds?
(climbers too I guess – hell cyclists in general)
It has to be an absolute medical mystery why cyclists are such asthmatics…
Not sure what my point was though.
As I say, ya gotta know what’s not being tested for.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 2, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
Equality is where I’d be at. I’m not tryng to argue that one is worse or better than the other.
The perception thing is what really jumps out at me.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 2, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'd guess it's partly a question of how high profile these events are
For most of the world Cycling = The Tour de France, and just as we get more cycling news from there so we get more doping news. Things may be different in Belgium, but until recent years it was hard for the rest of us to get much information at all. I saw a bit in that Ghislain Lambert film doesn’t really count as scientific analysis.
Good work again fmk
Put that manly anorak back in the cupboard and go for a beer to clear your head. ;-) there will be racing again tomorrow and we can live the dream.
Manly anorak works well, in the context....
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 1, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions
Can anoraks be manly?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 2, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
I guess then they're "waterproofs"
but I used to work in an outdoor activity centre, and there were plenty of blokes in manly waterproofs (often trying to prove their testosterone levels by climbing around chairs, playing the climbers’ broom game, trying to climb up random things, etc etc. And women too, but “womanly anorak” sounds even stranger! Happy days!
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 2, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Will I regret asking
what’s the climbers’ broom game?
safe enough. you climb a climbing wall with someone else pointing out the next handhold you’re to use. is fun. if you’re holdng the stick.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 2, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
A different one!
You hold a broom with both your hands – once they’re on the broom, the hands can’t move. The broom is horizontal to your body, you generally start by climbing over the broom and manoeuvring yourself round it/it round you until you’ve got back to your starting position. It demonstrates flexibility (and for some reason) manliness, and is often accompanied by vast amounts of beer. Where I worked, it was also used as some kind of ritual mating dance – or as an attempt at one….
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 3, 2011 3:50 AM EST up reply actions
I bet you used to play Twister too :)
Never came across that vers. Just the sadist pointing out a hold you can’t quite grasp.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 3, 2011 4:31 AM EST up reply actions
I used to watch... much more fun!
they also had the Chair game – getting all the way over & under a chair without touching the floor…..
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 3, 2011 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
If it doesn’t have a fur-lined hood, it’s not an anorak. Isn’t that a cagoul or something?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 2, 2011 7:27 PM EST up reply actions
I thought a fur-lined hood = parka?
And the cool kids wear those these days.
Anorak = basic flimsy plastic, often drab-green?
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 3, 2011 3:51 AM EST up reply actions
I’m getting confused now. Getting me coats all muxed up.
How about we agree this def: anorak = totally uncool?
:)
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 3, 2011 4:32 AM EST up reply actions
I had an anorak once...
It was a pull over waterproof hoodie. Not a poncho or flimsy, it had more insulation to it, but equivalent to a heavier windbreaker. I liked it…3 or 4 buttons on the front and a hood. Mine had a small square pocket on the front on hand warmer pockets, but who knows if this is “required”.
Parka is a trademark
Anorak is a train-spotter





















