Talking Cycling with Gerard Vroomen of Cervélo
Interview by Jen See
"I don’t want everyone to think I’m only interested in women’s cycling," Gerard Vroomen told me near the end of an hour-long conversation. Certainly, Vroomen had plenty to say about the sport, the Garmin-Cervélo team, and what benefits he sees to sponsoring a women’s team. We also talked about designing bikes for women, and why it is not that much different from designing bikes for men. Here, my friends, is the first part of what we hope will eventually be a two-part interview with Gerard Vroomen. This time, it’s women’s racing. Next time, we’ll give the dudes their due.
If you don’t recognize his name, Gerard Vroomen is, together with Phil White, the co-owner of Cervélo. As cycling companies go, Cervélo is relatively new. The company presented their first line of bikes in 1997. Fun fact! The company’s name combines the French words for brain, cerveau, and for bicycle, vélo. Owned by a pair of engineers, Cervélo devotes a significant amount of their time and resources to design and testing. Their big break came in 2003 when they signed on to sponsor the CSC team. Surely, you know the rest of the story, for after CSC came Cervélo TestTeam and now, the Garmin-Cervélo partnership. "You’re the boss," Gerard Vroomen said as we began the interview. Yes, for one hour, I got to be the boss of the Cervélo owner. No, I did not boss my way into a new bike. Maybe next time!
Why women's cycling
Cervélo’s commitment to women’s cycling dates from their earliest sponsorship agreements. "The initial decision goes way, way back," explained Vroomen, whose company has sponsored women’s teams in Canada since they sold their first line of bikes. "We had some people on our assembly line who raced on semi-pro cycling teams," he said, and the Cervélo employees included both men and women. In the beginning, there was no master plan: "I’d like to say there was some high-minded philosophy, but it was really just coincidence." Cervélo did not immediately sponsor women’s cycling at the elite level. The agreement to supply CSC stretched the still-small company to its limits and delayed the move into the elite women’s ranks. The first sponsorship agreement with a top-level women’s team came in 2008 with Cervélo-Lifeforce. Olympic time trial champion Kristin Armstrong was among the riders who raced at Cervélo's first elite women's team.
Vroomen’s approach to supporting women’s cycling is pragmatic. The team brings Cervélo exposure, though maybe not as much as Vroomen might like, and also establishes a connection to the company’s potential customers. "Our female customers expect from us that we support their sport, and I think rightly so," he explained. Cervélo aims at the performance market, and supporting women at the elite level simply makes sense. "It would be inappropriate, let’s say, to not support women’s cycling when you are supporting men’s cycling," asserted Vroomen. The company sponsors women’s cycling to build credibility among the athletic women who are their likely customers. "It’s better than just taking frames and putting pink and flowers on them." Vroomen paused. "Not that there’s anything wrong with flowers. Or pink." Vroomen has no fear of the pink. He has pink Speedplay pedals on his personal bike.
Vroomen also values the feedback he receives from the elite riders. For him, this is the most important benefit of the sponsorship relationship. It offers him an opportunity to see how his bikes perform out in the wild and hear from women riders who spend quality time with their bikes. "Our customer base is female, so our product base has to function properly for women," Vroomen explained. Sponsoring an elite women’s team means Cervélo receives feedback from riders who race their bikes hard and put in the big miles.
Building bikes for women
Unlike many companies in the bike industry, Cervélo does not build a frameset specifically for women. "I really can’t ride the women’s bikes as they’re made by the mainstream companies," I commented. "That’s because you are a woman," quipped Vroomen. Vroomen has strong feelings on this subject, and recognizes that he is working against the grain. "It’s based on the theory that women have long legs and a short torso. The only problem with the theory is that it’s just not true," said Vroomen of the approach to building women’s bikes adopted by many companies in the cycling industry. The framesets designed for women tend to have a shorter, steeper geometry and an upright position. "That’s not performance cycling, that’s riding around and going to the bakery," argued Vroomen. Sometimes, you need a bike to get to the bakery.
But the bakery is not a bike race. "The women’s geometry, it makes some sense for people who aren’t that serious about the sport," noted Vroomen. He conceded that the marketing is very powerful all the same. "It’s such a strong story, you go to someone and you say we made this bike just for you." Still, building a bike for a small person is the same whether that person is a man or a woman, according to Vroomen. "If you look at a guy that’s 5’5" and a woman that’s 5’5", they have the same ratio." Vroomen called his bikes "small person specific." A smaller size frameset is simply different than the bigger sizes. After all, "that’s why we have sizes."
We need to "debug the myth" that women need separate bikes, Vroomen believes. Some women may want a more upright riding style, as may some men. But that preference is separate from dialing in bike fit for women. In fact, he worries that the current marketing narrative may actually turn some women away from the sport rather than helping to build it. This set of ideas, "it’s completely destructive to women in cycling," he said with only a touch of hyperbole. Certainly, sponsoring a women’s team offers Vroomen a tangible way to make the case for his approach. Garmin-Cervélo team rider Emma Pooley stands 5’1" and rides a 48 cm Cervélo S3 frameset.
The Garmin-Cervélo Ten
Ten riders comprise this year’s Garmin-Cervélo squad, a significant decrease from the super team of 2010. Vroomen defended the decision forthrightly. "Well, I think it’s pretty simple. There’s rarely a double program, and every race except the Giro has just six riders per team," he explained. A big team has more riders than they can possibly race with the current women’s race calendar. "What on earth are you going to do with fourteen riders?" Vroomen asked. If the team is very strong, the math may lead to top level riders sitting at home, because there are not enough races to keep them busy. In Vroomen’s view, this arrangement does not serve the sport or the riders especially well. "Better to let them go, increase the average level of the field, get a better basis, get people more interested, grow the sport, and everyone shall live happily ever after!"
Vroomen also argued that running a smaller team offers better opportunities for the younger riders. "Because the women’s racing scene is so small, a women’s team is at the same time both a top of the world-ranking type of team and a development team. It’s all in one," he explained. With that reality in mind, the current Garmin-Cervélo team includes a mix of experienced and young riders. "You can see a core of very experienced riders, but also a significant number of very young riders, to get that development aspect going as well." If the younger riders do not get enough chances to race, their development may stall. The numbers game could mean a young rider spends much of her time training rather than learning how to race. "You’re a development rider, you’re nineteen years old, you’re rider number fourteen" on the roster. Number fourteen is not going to make too many races when the field limit stands at six riders from each team.
Together with HTC-Highroad, last year’s Cervélo TestTeam dominated many of the races on the calendar and amassed a stack of victories. While that record led to headlines for Cervélo, it was not necessarily the best way to inspire competitive racing. In Vroomen’s view, "it’s bad for the sport if you have this dominant team." It can mean that fewer riders receive recognition and the racing has less suspense. This year, "it’s not that important to win every race" with the Garmin-Cervélo team said Vroomen. The Cervélo owner has his eye on the long-term. "Maybe you have to sacrifice some victories short term to grow the sport long-term," he said. Of course, growing the sport over the long term means selling more bikes, an excellent thing in Vroomen’s line of work.
With an eye toward building for the future, Garmin-Cervélo has also set a minimum wage for the women’s team. Women’s teams are governed by the same rules as Continental teams, and there is no minimum wage for the Continental level teams. Vroomen set out to create one. He did not confirm the exact number, but instead explained that he looked at the amounts from various Western European and North American countries. "It’s a little bit difficult because riders live in eight different countries and the team is in a ninth and has a service corse in a tenth, so which country do you pick to get an average? I sorta did an average of civilized countries," Vroomen explained.
Vroomen said the Garmin-Cervélo minimum came out to be "relatively generous," especially if we add in personal endorsements. If you are working at a coffee shop, you are not going to have endorsement money to add into the salary. Garmin-Cervélo uses this minimum as a starting point for the new riders. For riders who have been racing at the elite level for at least two years, the minimum salary increases by 50%. Still, "it’s not a very good way to become a millionaire," Vroomen admitted.
The Garmin-Cervélo move is a small step forward. It is likely too soon to see a minimum wage adopted throughout women’s cycling. "It’s not good for your budget, and it’s hard enough to find sponsors for a women’s cycling team" said Vroomen. He considers Garmin-Cervélo in a fortunate position to be able to offer a minimum salary. "It isn’t our intention that this reflects poorly on those teams who don’t do it yet." Vroomen is realistic about the ability of smaller teams to pay a minimum wage and for now would rather see more teams in the sport than more rules. "For the smaller teams, I’m just happy that they’re around," said Vroomen. Over time, he hopes that the bigger teams will join the Garmin-Cervélo effort and eventually it can become "the standard," but for now, that represents a long-term goal.
Who's in charge of women's cycling?
Unlike the top-level international men’s teams, elite Women’s teams like Garmin-Cervélo do not receive their licenses from the UCI. "Not to say anything bad about the UCI, but women’s cycling isn’t really governed by the UCI, it’s governed to a large degree by national federations" explained Vroomen. "Our women’s team does not ride on a UCI license." Indeed, Jonathan Vaughters did not initially know how to register the women’s team, because it did not follow the same pattern as the men’s Garmin-Cervélo pro tour team. Currently, the women’s team carries a British license, because British riders command a majority on the roster. "This year, we have a British license, last year we were Dutch, the year before that probably Swiss," said Vroomen ticking it off on his fingers. To give another example, though they sound Italian, Diadora-Pasta Zara-Manhattan received their team license from the United States.
The diffuse structure in women’s cycling also helps to explain the strange rules that occasionally emanate from UCI headquarters. Why do the rules ban stage races over ten days when the women have long raced the ten-day Giro Donne and the now-defunct Tour de l’Aude? Only the UCI knows the answer to that one. "There’s, at this point, I don’t believe a very strong movement at the federation level — national or international — to take women’s cycling to the next level," said Vroomen. Plenty of teams and individuals are doing the work of building the sport, but for now, "there isn’t a really concerted effort." "It’s really not that hard to add women’s race to men’s race and a women’s team to a men’s team," argued Vroomen, but the sport needs the institutions and unity to make such changes. "It’s really not that hard. It’s just one line in the rules," he reiterated.
Though he would like to see more unified governance for the women’s side of the sport, Vroomen is not convinced that women’s racing needs the intermediate levels that men’s racing has just yet. "I’m not sure there’s really a need for that right now," he commented, but admitted that he also does not consider himself "an expert" on this aspect of the sport. For now, he would rather see young riders mixing it up with the bigs and learning the sport with the best. "A lot of the nineteen and twenty year olds are a real contribution to the current races, so putting them in other races means you’re weakening the current races and maybe weakening their development," Vroomen said. He worries that adding a Pro Continental level like the men have, for example, would spread the talent in women’s racing too thinly. And for now, the resources simply do not exist to fund separate development teams and races. "We don’t have that luxury, we don’t have the races to choose from. It’s hard enough to get the budget together for the highest level. How are you going to get the budget for the next level down?"
Selling the story
Vroomen has committed to supporting the women’s team for two seasons. Attracting additional sponsorship remains a necessity for the long-term survival of the team. At its current level, the Garmin-Cervélo team’s budget runs in the mid-six figures, a fraction of the cost of the top level men’s professional teams. "Garmin is really interested, they sell GPS’s to both men and women. And both markets are important. The cycling team is a big part of their marketing exposure," Vroomen commented. It remains to be seen whether Vaughters and Vroomen can sell the women’s team story to Garmin or another title sponsor.
For Vroomen, expanding the sport’s media exposure offers one of the more significant ways to grow the sport. The major men’s races should all have women’s races: This is one of Vroomen’s mantras for growing the sport. He points to Flèche Wallonne as a model he would love to see other races follow. "It’s on television. Right now, it’s the only race that does that," he said. Not only can women’s cycling fans see the finish at Flèche Wallonne, but the men and women share a podium ceremony. The race organizers at Flèche Wallonne, "they’re taking steps and I don’t know why they’re doing that, but I applaud them for it." Vroomen’s philosophy is to ask for small things first: "We’re not even asking you to spend money on a motorcycle camera, just turn on the cameras in the last kilometer." If people watch it, then perhaps it will be possible to add live coverage from the road for the women.
At the same time, Vroomen also recognizes that women’s teams have to do their share of the work in promoting the sport. "Every sponsorship is what you make of it yourself. With the women’s team you have to make more of it yourself. With the men’s team, you already get exposure even if you’re lazy," Vroomen commented. The do-it-yourself approach characterized the Cervélo TestTeam’s media efforts and Vroomen is working to bring it to the new marriage with Garmin. At Garmin-Cervélo, the team plans to continue to include the women’s team in the Beyond The Peloton video series. To critics of the Garmin-Cervélo’s promotion of the women’s team, Vroomen offered a challenge: "For those people who think that Slipstream doesn’t do enough, I’d say just grab your half a million dollars and start your own team." Vroomen also hopes to see women riders do more to embrace social media. "If you look at how many women riders blog and social media compared to the men, there are some gains to be made," he suggested. "You can’t say, on the one hand, no one wants to watch us, but you’re not on twitter."
Vroomen recognizes well the value of the women he sponsors in marketing his brand. He says the women riders are especially effective in outreach with Cervélo dealers and customers. Iris Slappendel, for example, recently attended a dealers’ meeting for Cervélo in California. "There are way more female riders I would put in front of a group of customers or retailers or anything without any hesitation than there are men," he commented. The women are typically well-educated, since most riders do not expect to make significant money from racing. They need a career beyond racing, and indeed, may already have one. "They haven’t been groomed since they were twelve years old to be professional cyclists. They have actually thought about other things along the way," Vroomen explained. Those wider experiences can make the women effective ambassadors for their sport and sponsors.
Building for the future
Vroomen’s favorite race result from last year came at Flèche Wallonne when Emma Pooley won on the Mur de Huy. Not only was the finish on television, but the race showcased one of the more down-to-earth and likable characters in women’s racing. "I just really liked Emma’s statement, her power was crap, she was lucky to win there, and then she didn’t dare to cheer there because she was afraid to fall off," Vroomen recounted. Pooley is the master of self-deprecation. "I just think maybe that’s not what you want a world champion to say, but it’s great for people just starting to out to hear," laughed Vroomen of Pooley’s post-race comments.
"In all fairness, women’s cycling has to prove itself," Vroomen concluded. The women can not do it by themselves, and it is unfair to expect the riders to overcome every obstacle. They need support from teams and sponsors, and they need exposure from the media. At the same time, "there’s no inalienable right to be a professional athlete in any sport in any gender. There has to be someone will to pay sponsorship," he argued. Both men’s and women’s cycling face a similar challenge in this respect.
At Garmin-Cervélo, success is "for the riders to say that they had the support to perform to the best of their abilities." Vroomen is not counting race wins or calculating points. "If the best of their abilities is that they win everything or they just win a couple of races, that’s secondary, that’s just the outcome," he said. The best athletes know that they can control their training and their performance, but they can not always control what shows up on the results sheet at the end of the day. Sometimes on the day, someone else is faster. Concluded Vroomen: "I think for the most part people who are involved in women’s cycling they’re involved not for the enormous glory of today but to try to grow something for the future."
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great read - thanks
Was thinking a having a women’s race would be really good for livening up TV coverage. Take MSR this weekend. We know there’ll be a good chuck of large peloton chasing breakaway. It’ll probably only get interesting at the Cipressa and Poggio.
If you had a women’s race scheduled to finish an hour beforehand it’s give you something to show in the boring bit of the race – good for exposure for the women and would liven up the men’s coverage while the cafe would otherwise be discussing cheese, or cricket or rocks…
This is becoming an art form for you isn't it Gav.
Great interview again.
So many assumptions, so little time. :D
Not to be a ****
but what does Vroomen mean when referring to “civilized countries”? (the salary discussion)
C'mon
He’s talking in an extended interview. Not every word can be PR-speak. There’s no malice in the context.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
He might have been referring to countries that offer a real living wage as opposed to a minimum wage.
So many assumptions, so little time. :D
I'd assume
countries who have a minimum wage, given the context. I would also say he wasn’t trying to be catty with that, in my view.
Apparently he's not talking about Sweden
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Mar 16, 2011 4:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Surprisingly few labor regulations
System is mainly based on negotiated terms between unions and employer organizations with government regulating the manner in which those must act toward eachother.
Historical reasons
Wouldn’t recommend it if you didn’t have a100 year history of union-friendly government.
It's a matter of definition
The collective bargain agreements that Jens talk about results in a wage that is a minimum wage, given other arrengements on the labor market that make it difficult to employ someone at a wage lower than the particular agreement.. So one might say that there are many different minimum wages, one for every trade or industry.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Mar 16, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Great stuff Gavia & Gérard
I’m glad the cat didn’t interrupt the editing too much as this is arguably your best interview yet Gavia.
You and I have talked about this at great length and it’s always good to get the views of someone like Gérard who’s been so supportive of women’s cycling. Views I strongly agree with. What stands out is the way he speaks is a healthy balance between business and ethics, with no patronising comments about women in the sport. This pretty much reflects the outlook and philosophy of most newer businesses (no matter the industry).
I’m looking forward to part 2
Thanks!
I enjoyed doing this one, and honestly, I have a bunch of material that didn’t make the final interview. Maybe I’ll have to publish some out-takes or something ;)
I really like that it was almost the default – of course, we support women’s racing. We sell bikes to women. Yes! More like this.
great read
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
"I don’t want everyone to think I’m only interested in women’s cycling"
the issue is not that he talks about it a lot, but that he is one of the few figures at the top of the sport that talks about it at all, so lots of times he’s the one that journalists turn to for a quote. I don’t know why no-one thinks to ask the boss of Specialised (who after all did all those HTC bike fitting videos) or even Terry Dolan who only apparently gets to see his bikes raced with his name painted on them by the women’s teams.
I'm not trying to make work for you, boss
I was just trying to say that Vroomen is one of the few figures behind the sport who says things that sound like he genuinely enjoys watching the women race, and isn’t just being nudged by his PR and Marketing people at intervals during the season. Too often all we hear is “congratulations to rider x who won on our component y” Either that or he employs a better class of PR person.
Ha!
I got what you meant, really. And I’d say after spending an hour of chatting, Vroomen is pretty genuine in this interest in women’s racing and has really thought about these issues. Which is why I figured he’d be an interesting interview. It’s defo not PR, though obvy, he recognizes that supporting the women’s side of the sport does offer a benny to building the Cervélo brand.
Media Exposure
One little thing that I’d love to see is for someone involved with the teams to ask any journalists and media people that they meet at a race who they represent and where and when their stories are going to be published, then find some way of getting that info out. Through Twitter perhaps, although there are other ways. VC Vaiano who organised last weekend’s Trofeo Vannucci sent out this press release to the Italian cycling media:
Le immagini televisive del 9° Trofeo Vannucci Alberto – GP Valbisenzio vinto nella giornata di domenica 13 marzo dal Tricolore di Monia Baccaille della SC MCipollini Giambenini Giordana verranno trasmesse con la seguente programmazione:
Lunedì 14 marzo alle ore 18,20 su TV Prato 39;
Lunedì 14 marzo alle ore 21,30 su Canale 10;
Martedì 15 marzo alle ore 21,00 su Valdarno Channel;
Mercoledì 16 marzo alle ore 21,00 su TV Prato 39;
Giovedì 17 marzo alle ore 22,30 su Tele Etruria.
A corollario della manifestazione è nostra intenzione ringraziare le autorità, gli enti, gli sponsor, i media e tutti coloro che ci sono stati vicini nell’organizzazione di questo importante evento sportivo per Vaiano e tutta la Valbisenzio.
which in brief translation says “Here’s where and when you can watch this” adds a list of TV programmes, three of which at least put up their programmes on the web afterwards “thanks to the authorities, sponsors, media and organisers”
This is, as usual, really good stuff.
A recent encounter I had with a Specialized regional sales rep makes me think that you could get that interview with pretty serious ease. Since they’re very much committed to women’s specific design, too, would be interesting.
I don’t feel like I have anything terribly earth-shattering to say about Vroomen here. He just makes a great deal of sense, and his development model is pretty well thought out. The fact that the UCI simply isn’t even attempting to manage women’s road racing at an international level besides holding the world cup is deeply disturbing, though.
Specialized
I’ll add them to my list. I hadn’t really thought of talking to them, but certainly, it might be interesting. Just a matter of sorting the legwork, obvy.
Yeah, the lack of coordination on women’s cycling is a problem, for sure. That makes it really hard to grow the sport, if it’s left to individual teams and officials spread out at the various national federations. This means it’s really on the teams – riders, sponsors, management – to make the sport into something viable. Not an easy task, by any means.
counter-argument:
Given what we have learned about the UCI’s commitments, leadership skills, and. thanks to fmk, long-term record of achievements, its neglect of women’s cycling might be a really good thing.
snark reply:
“In a long-awaited appointment, the UCI has appointed a director for its ground-breaking initiative against doping in women’s cycling. Assuming these responsibilities will be the extremely well qualified Canadian physician, Dr. Andre Aubut.”
HA!
There is the fact that when they do pay attention to women’s cycling, they fuck things up more.
but the challenge/opportunity is squarely on the team owners, right?
ASO doesn’t care about women’s cycling, and most of women’s cycling’s race organizers seem to be in near-constant state of about-to-throw-in-the-towel.
It seems to me that the big problem with developing a stable organizational structure from the teams is that they too have been ephemeral.
Yep.
I have a strong feeling / hope we’re going to get some input from the Horizon folks when they wake up, but my overall sense is that the teams need races and the races need teams, and many of both are on awfully shaky ground.
Could the major teams organize a series of races from which all share revenue, sort of like a league, that becomes a stable top-level of women’s cycling? It would be really, really interesting to see the attempt, especially if it came with serious media support and the possibility of selling a broadcaster a ‘series’ that were at least somewhat predictable.
My tuppence worth...
I may be a bit naive in my thoughts, but I don’t think it’s too difficult to make a step forward with or without UCI involvement.
General consensus is that UCI don’t understand women’s cycling and don’t support it to the extent that it should be supported. It can’t be too difficult for the elite women’s cycling team owners and team managers to sit round a table, have someone chair the meeting and put in place what is effectively a women’s cycling union. What that does is at least give one unified voice to challenge the UCI and race organisers in a fair way. If nothing happens, then this ‘union’ can at least then decide what they do next, whether it be they seek private funding and do what happened within American Football all those years ago as well with football here in the UK with the EPL. Different scales of sports and fan bases, but precedents have been set throughout sports on what can be done with or without federations.
No matter what though, a bit of coordination is required. Give me all the team managers’ email addresses and I’ll be happy to do the donkey work and get the right people talking haha.
Just my view and certainly not the view of the team, but until Stef arrives in Italy tonight it’s the best we can do at HFRT ;o)
I like your point here
about getting the team managers/owners to sit down together. I think that’s an important next step for women’s cycling – that there is some discussion among the teams about what works for them, what they need to move forward, and then, some coordination to try to make things happen. I don’t think any one team – even a big one – can do those things on their own. But if the teams get together, then, well, you are making some progress ;)
It's surprising in Italy at least
how many teams also run a race. Last weekend’s Trofeo Vannucci was put on by VC Vaiano, and the people behind Costa Etrusca also run a couple of junior teams.
although it's not too strenuously enforced anymore
USA cycling has a rule that a sponsored cycling team (there’s a distinction between non-sponsored teams and sponsored teams) has to promote at least one race per year.
Most of the growth in US cycling has happened with the development of regional Bicycle Racing Associations (of course, TXBRA is the one I’m most familiar with), which are, in effect, associations of race promoters who meet to haggle out the race calendars and other related issues. Since all of the race promoters are associated, one way or another, with teams, this winds up being sort of a model for the organization we could be talking about.
Same thing
happens in NorCali. And man, the calendar is rich there. Also, women’s racing is thriving, or at least, thriving better than many other places. Can’t be a coincidence, can it?
Sounds like a great system
Our team’s sponsors are investing a 4 race GP series for women which will have a wee bit of TV exposure amongst the coverage of the existing men’s series’ coverage.
It’s not a requirement, but something HF/Johnson Health tech wanted to do and it’s been controlled in a different way than what you’ve described. I can see why it works so well over in the USA and it would be cool to see if other countries will use the same model
For a time
the regional orgs would issue their own licenses – I think in some places that still survives. There was really a strong push to break away entirely from USA Cycling by some of the regions due to a sense that the national federation just wasn’t listening to local concerns. In NorCali, the NCNCA.org organizes the races, though they no longer (last I checked) issue separate licenses.
So
what’s with the i at the end of NorCal? You LA folks really talk like that? :)
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
I tend
to simplify geography a bit, so everything south of SLO is LA, and everything East of Napa is Nebraska.
"It was getting colder and colder as we went up. About halfway up, I started to go a little backwards and as I passed Thor he looked at me and said, "If you lose my wheel I will smash you." I took his wheel and found an extra gear." João Correia
Not pissing off the race organisers would be another problem
we lost a race in Italy a couple of weeks ago for reasons that sounded very much (in their own Italian way) like “They didn’t respect us”
one little question
the article is titled with gav as the author, the writing is obviously gav’s, she talks about the interview in the first person, yet always at the top there is “interview by jens see.” Is Jens like, your boss or something?
isn't he everybody's?
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
the. g
Anyone who has every thought a working Photojournalist has a glam job needs to rethink...
by Christopher See on Mar 16, 2011 11:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ack I'm fairly certain that's not what i wanted to do..
Jen is slowly emerging from the chrysalis of Gavia… Jens has nothing to do with it for better or for worse….
Anyone who has every thought a working Photojournalist has a glam job needs to rethink...
by Christopher See on Mar 16, 2011 11:43 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ha!
Jens does not get a cut. I always sign interviews with my real name. So, that would be Jen See. Not the same as Jens, but some similar letters ;)
Shouldn't that be..
Not the same as Jens, see?
Funny, ain't it?
For interviews, yes, I do have a real name. It’s also over on the left sidebar under editors.
<————— gav’s real name
This avoids any awkwardness about “anonymous internet people” and such. Look! Not anonymous!
I'm just used to calling you gav
I suspect that I even do it via email.
I enjoyed this and found his thought process on team size to be really reasonable.
Like others above I wondered first how messed up it is that women’s teams are not licensed by the UCI. Then, like others above, I realized that may be a good thing in a way or two. But, ultimately, if the women’s side is to grow, I think this needs to change (as much as that makes my skin crawl). I mean, yes, more racing needs to be available for women, more broadcasting and marketing opportunities to attract the sponsors – but the UCI needs also to give a shit about it. They need to have skin in the game.
Kudos to Cervelo for investing in this. Hope they can re-up after their two years or help find someone to take over as title sponsor so the team continues on. Good interview too Gavia. I enjoyed the read…
Unless the viable alternative
To UCI comes from collaboration between women’s teams and races and not just ASO.
Shorter: I think UCI should be replaced.
by R Mc on Mar 16, 2011 8:52 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think collaboration is an excellent idea because all parties involved are vested in each other's success.
Teams need the races, races need the teams, both need media exposure which brings an audience, which attracts sponsors, who pay teams, who can hire riders. I liked Vroomen’s comments about at least broadcasting the last km of races, but I think the earlier idea in the comments is even better – broadcast the race and show it during the more boring bits of the men’s races. Fans of cycling will enjoy the action and women’s events will get the exposure needed for the sport to grow.
To me, all these ideas are great (central organization, collaboration, etc) but if the races aren’t getting media attention, the sponsors won’t be all in because they get to little advertisement value for their investment.
by JustJoshinYa on Mar 16, 2011 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
yep
It’s really hard to sell the sponsorship if there’s no media coverage, for sure. That’s a recurring theme in these discussions about funding women’s cycling. The teams need to be able to offer something tangible to the sponsors – social media, outreach, technical feedback, these are all good starting points. But to put the sport on a solid foundation – you know, so that more than one team can offer a minimum wage, for ex. – the media coverage is really the holy grail.
Gav, I didn't understand your comment...
“I really can’t ride the women’s bikes as they’re made by the mainstream companies,” I commented.
Please explain.
A bike should have a voice... it should speak to you, and you should hear it, and what it should say is: "Attack!" - sminer
simple really
G doesn’t conform to the xpected norm of a female cyclist as perceived by mainstream builders. Just like when they assume all of us tall guys can ride one geometry in a large frameset
Anyone who has every thought a working Photojournalist has a glam job needs to rethink...
by Christopher See on Mar 16, 2011 11:48 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Now that I read it a bunch of times...I get that.
The first time thru, I took it in a philosophical “I ain’t riding for the man, man” kinda way.
A bike should have a voice... it should speak to you, and you should hear it, and what it should say is: "Attack!" - sminer
yep
I was talking about the sizing there.
Geek Alert! My current road frame is a 54cm seat tube and a 55 cm top tube. 120mm stem, no spacers. Compare that with a Trek WSD setup, for example – 54cm seat tube gives you a 53cm top tube, which is 2cm shorter than my current bike. To get roughly the same position, I’d need a 140 stem. Many of the women’s framesets also have an extra-tall head tube, so the headtube extends a couple cm over the top tube – that’s great if you want an upright position, it saves throwing tons of spacers in there – but if you are trying to get a race-areo position, it’s not going to happen with that geometry.
Ah, a fellow long-torsoian. I suspected as much.
Me = 57cm ST with 57.5 TT (120mm stem, etc.)
A bike should have a voice... it should speak to you, and you should hear it, and what it should say is: "Attack!" - sminer
Ja, though not ridiculously so.
I do have long arms, but I also don’t want the upright position. I find it kinda uncomfy and the bike just doesn’t handle great.
Ha!
I could so not fit your bike. 52 St, 54tt, 110mm stem. Admittedly I’ve got about 2 cm of spacers under the stem, but I’m about as flexible as a tree trunk. Still, your bike would absolutely make my upper back scream in pain after about, oh, 10 miles.
Ha!
Flexiblity, it’s a good thing for all kinds of reasons. But! And this is the other side of Vroomen’s point – position choices shouldnt’ be gendered. So, you might be totally happy on a “women’s” geometry bike, because it would suit your position preferences. But that position shouldn’t be marketed as “women’s” it should be marketed as short-reach or more upright or “relaxed fit.” LIke the jeans! That is, dudes or women should have that option, while women should not automatically be sent to the short-reach geometry. If that makes sense?
It does.
My position isn’t as upright as the length of that ST makes it sound, since I’ve got quite a bit of stem exposed on top of it. Really I fit pretty easily on a standard horizontal top tube 54cm bike. But I tend to agree with Vroomen and you that ‘gendering’ positions is bad.
I’d also suggest that even short people vary pretty widely. Nancy’s frustrated by not being able to find a bike with a short enough top tube for her, but I recall that Keiko of pedalstrike fame had exactly the opposite problem, namely bikes she could comfortably stand over almost inevitably had top tubes that were way too short for her torso. She’s probably the poster-child for what’s wrong with ‘WSD’ in that respect. In a lot of cases, the problem seems to be that framebuilders just don’t make sizes for smaller people, and that affects women disproportionately.
I think the importance comes
with the “get off the bike!” part, Lance.
by Sui Juris on Mar 16, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Some brands are going this way
One big brand (starts with T, rhymes with Shrek) now has three different geometries for the one model of bike. This is their effort to address fit issues.
It makes sense really – I know of one women’s team that walked away from a pretty lucrative bike deal (well lucrative for women’s cycling) because the brand insisted they ride the women’s specific model. The problem was that it that was a) made from low end carbon and b) didn’t fit everyone on the team. The second reason was the real deal breaker.
by Creeping Tortoise on Mar 17, 2011 3:13 AM EDT up reply actions
The women UCI teams are licenced by the UCI
I dont understand what he means by saying we are not. We pay a licence fee to the UCI within a deadline in the autumn, and the registration files are sent to the UCI via the national federation of the country you are rgistered in. We then get a confirmation from the UCI when everything is accepted. Besides that, a great interview.
By the way, check out our web page, www.hitecproducts-uck.no
Karl
Thanks for joining in Karl
I agree with you and missed that comment on my first read. It’s hard for me to comment on this as our team opted not to register with UCI this year.
Your team’s had a great start to the year. See you at Roeselare.
Stuart
Welcome
Great with some inside perspective.
(BTW it’s okay to let the other teams win a race now and then.)
+1
If that team races in light blue on Dolan bikes
Right, thanks for the clarification
Also, welcome to our loopy party! And thanks for all the information you put out for us about Hitec. It’s great to have so many updates and photos to follow the team.
The problem is with going through your national federation
The UCI don’t have specific regulations for women’s teams. They do ProTour, ProConti and Conti, and seem to have put the women in with the Conti, probably because the other two levels have minimum wages. The trouble is that Conti is set up as a regional developmental level so has a couple of rules that can be problematic. Firstly the largest grouping of riders must come from your home nation. That’s OK for you at Hitec because you see yourself as a Norwegian team anyway, but HTC and Garmin Cervelo have found themselves being forced to register in different countries every year according to who left and who signed on. Hence JV not knowing how and where to register his team this year. That is just silly.
And secondly a majority of riders must be 27 or under. Again great for the men if you want them to move on to bigger teams, and one that doesn’t cause too much trouble nowadays because a lot of the riders are students and give up when they get a proper job, but if teams did start to offer more salaried posts and we saw a group of proper paid domestiques then we’d hear a lot more grumbling. I think that Nederland Bloeit were the only team that were caught out by this rule this year, and they ended up signing a girl who worked for their sponsor to balance out the numbers.
To Monty
I agree with you for the most part. The age rule have the positive effect that the teams cannot consist only of ‘older’ riders, and young riders can more easily get a chance. Without this rules, teams like HTC and Cervelo would possibly only be +27 girls. With the rules, young girls like Emma Trott, Lucy Martin and Katie Colclough more easier gets into the bigger teams because they also require them to be legally registered. Im not saying they wouldnt be in NB / Cervelo / HTC anyway :-) Women cycling are very much dominated by +27 riders (except Vos of course but she is really something special), so it would be tempting to (with a good deal of money), make a team out of only +27 riders and from all diiferent nations. I do not think the women cycling is big enough to allow that.
Vroomen seemed to share your take
That having the young riders mixed in with the older, more experienced women is a good thing for developing the sport. I think I agree on this point, at least, at this point in the sport’s development.
It works for us
We made a conscious effort of having a healthy balance and I know the likes of Penny, Annie and Nancy racing with Sarah, Helen and Hanka will only help them develop. Not just tactically (Sarah admits she’s still learning here) but also in approach to diet, training and race preparation.
I don't think that even with a huge budget
teams would go for the all superstar line-up. After all tne top men’s teams don’t do that. I remember Vaughters tweeting about how glad he was to get Jack Bobridge’s signature, Radioshanck and BMC had a little tussle over Phinney, Rabo run a brilliant development programme etc. etc. And even the massive, top-heavy Cervelo team of last year came up with a pretty decent programme for Emilie Aubry. Cycling managers all seem to realise that they have to share the responsibility for development of the next generation.
It seems to be working well for Emma J so far ;)
Also, HTC gets some good results from the younger women on the team. Amanda Miller is off to a very nice start this year there.
But it's not just the young riders that develop
I don’t know how much Emma J has had to do with it, but Sara Mustonen seems to have got over her nearly-but-not-quite-ness this year
It does hurt the riders who start later though
which is quite common in women’s cycling.
by Creeping Tortoise on Mar 17, 2011 3:17 AM EDT up reply actions
hahaha I loved the term “little person”
well… I’m a woman and a little person, finding a bike of my size is a nightmare. I dont care if is a “women’s size” or a “little person’s size” not all the bike brands have small frames and it has caused me back problems in the past. I think with a shorter horizon tube they could make a huge difference! :)
the smallest available! I used to ride a 50 size (horizon tube) 44cm vertical, now my team is sponsored by Dolan, we use the Hercules frame, the size is 53cm horizon, 44 vertical, I need a stem size 5 to reach my handlebars haha very nice frame, but a smaller size would be better ;)
by Nancy Arreola on Mar 16, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Editing note
For your amusement: The Cervélo site shows Vroomen’s name as both Gérard and Gerard. Since he is Dutch, he should be Gerard. So, I’ve now fixed that bit up ;)
Adding
But keyboard is set to French-Swiss, so the ééééééééééééé requires no extra button pushing. éééééééééééééééééééééééééé!
I'm impressed that you remember where they are
I’ve got a couple of different languages set up on my PC so I can just click a button to switch, but every time it takes me ten minutes to find half the letters. And even longer to remember that in Germany they swao round the z and y
Swiss French
also swaps the z and y. I actually just keep it at French Swiss, because it has most of the letters I need. By now, I pretty much know where everything is, except a few of the alphanums give me troubles.
This exchange reminds me to change my FB language to "English (Pirate)" and scrawl some messages to Me Hearties.
by JustJoshinYa on Mar 16, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
yep
Also has German ümlauts within easy reach.
Only switch in lay-out is the z and the y are reversed. Also, some alphanumberics are in random spots.
The things I learn on here!!!
This sounds most promising.
he probably just put the "é" in there for marketing purposes z:)
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I think the pragmatic view of Vroomen is really constructive
We might have all kinds of wishes and hopes for how things ought to be but the cold hard facts are that the money has to come from somewhere and in the end market forces will determine that inflow. So what needs to be done is to lay groundwork for that money to flow in. Short term charity efforts and demands based on what women’s racing (and racers) “deserve” aren’t constructive in the long run.
What needs to happen is two things: Opening the eyes of manufacturers and external sponsors to the available markets (and new markets) and the potentially high ROI that sponsoring women’s cycling offers. Secondly those in power need to make the sport available to a bigger audience. Be it through bringing the races together with already popular men’s races to benefit from their audiences or through finding other ways of getting a reasonable number of events televised.
Probably the second needs to happen before the first but as is said, women cyclists already bring a lot of sponsor-value in ways that many male riders don’t.
Firstly cool interview and great comments.
Womens teams are licenced by the UCI. It’s just the paperwork is checked and approved by the national federation. They are treated as and considered Continental teams by the UCI. There is a clear set of rules on the UCI. Only bad thing is they are a basically written for mens teams and womens teams are forced to fit them. But they are there and all the teams play by the same rules I guess.
I personally think there is a place for 2 levels of registration in womens cycling already.
I think Garmin have done an amazing thing with the minimum salary and I really hope others follow. Something that should be written into the rules for a ‘pro’ team in a two-tier registration system.
I also think there is a place for develoment teams. Consider Garmin linking with a team like ours, with an existing budget. They are licensed as a ‘pro’ team, us as a ‘conti’ team. We Get some benefits, maybe a small budget increase, material help, and input from them on structure etc. We also get to take some very talented young riders who need to get some racing under belts.
I respect what Gerard and JV have said about the numbers on their team……but I would point them to the fact they used one of our riders as a guest rider in Het this year. So I don’t think it quite works yet.
Their program misses a lot of events, perhaps due to budget, targets, and number of riders etc etc. But a development team could fill in some of the gaps. I personally feel its a huge step forward waiting to be taken by the sport.
I totally agree on the men/womens races at the same venue. Het Volk, Flanders, Sparkassen should also get a big pat on the back. It’s not just Fleche. I’d actually say Sparkassen is the best example of this working having been a DS at all of those events.
good points
there are loads of UCI races for women this year that starts with 8 or 7… I can think of like 8 to 10 1-day races and at least 2 stage races (Giro and Tour de Feminim). With 1-2-3 girls out with illness or injury or school 10 riders can be too few. Or 11 like we are even :-)

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