The Shadow of the Syringe
What happened to Paul Köchli's idea?
Jean-Paul van Poppel to David Walsh, July 1993
Looking across my bookshelf this past week, I thought it might be worthwhile to pull together what commentators and former riders have had to say about cycling's culture of the syringe and the general medicalisation of our sport. To see what some have said about why we might need a no needles policy.
Before getting into that, one historical note. In 1964, at the Tokyo Olympics, Pierre Dumas, with the support of the French Sports minister Maurice Herzog, convinced the UCI to allow him carry out a rudimentary doping control on cyclists at the Games. This chiefly consisted of examining the riders for evidence of recent injections and, if found, asking them what they'd taken. Forty-seven years later, the UCI seems finally to be catching up with men like Dumas. And - as we'll see shortly - finally be catching up with a man who, more than twenty years ago, had a no needles policy on his teams.
Let's begin our trawl through my bookshelf with Allan Peiper, the Australian directeur sportif with HTC and himself a former domestique - and sometimes a handy prologue rider - in the eighties and early nineties. In his book, A Peiper's Tale, he talks of his arrival at Peugeot and his introduction to syringes:
I thought I had been looking after myself, and turned up at the first Peugeot training camp with my garlic pills and wheat germ capsules, but the first thing I learned was how to use a needle. Not for doping, but for vitamin injections, because if you need vitamins it is more effective to inject them.
The whole thing was treated as a sort of initiation rite. Everyone would be in the soigneur's room and you had to inject yourself in the backside while they all watched you. And you couldn't throw the needle in, you had to push it in slowly so that you could feel it going through each layer of fibres. The guys would be lying around on beds and sprawled in chairs, laughing at your discomfort.
Now, to people not involved in cycle sport, that might sound a bit frightening, but it was part of your job. Your job was to be in as good a condition as possible, and it was your responsibility to ensure that. Taking tablets just won't do because your body is not forced to take up the vitamin; the tablet has to be digested and the digestive system might not even absorb the vitamin. With an injection, especially intravenously, your body has no choice but to absorb it.
Paul Kimmage, in A Rough Ride, echoed this last comment from Peiper, when he wrote about the first time he allowed himself to injected, during the 1986 Tour de France:
Riding six hours a day for twenty-three days was not possible without vitamin supplements, mineral supplements, chemicals to clean out a tired liver, medication to take the hardness out of rock-hard leg muscles. Taken in tablet form the medication passed through the stomach and liver. This was extra work for already overworked organs and the result was that much of the benefit of the product was lost. Injections avoided this and were therefore more efficient. A syringe did not always mean doping.
In a perfect world it would be possible to ride the Tour without taking any medication, so long as everyone else did the same. But this was not a perfect world.
We were not doping, we were taking care of ourselves, replacing what was being sweated daily out of our bodies. The substances taken were not on the proscribed list, so how could we be doping? And yet one thing was becoming clear to me: as soon as you started playing, as soon as you accepted the taking of medication, the line between what was legal and what was illegal, between taking care of yourself and doping grew very thin. Most fellows cross it without ever realising they have.
That the simple use of legally allowed products could lead to doping is something Laurent Fignon also noted, in his autobiography, We Were Young And Carefree:
In this ultra-medicalised little world where there are countless suitcases of remedies going the rounds, there was always the temptation to take something like a vitamin or a supplement, just to make sure. To ward off I don't know what. Looking logically at it there are times of the year - particularly when it's cold - when you have to look after yourself if you're going to ride a bike seriously. That is habit-forming, and those habits can degenerate. To do the job as well as you can, you can end up believing that medicine of all kinds is as integral to cycling as the bike itself.
Not everyone believed that needles and pills were necessary. When David Walsh spoke to Jan-Paul van Poppel in 1993 - for Walsh's book about the 1993 Tour de France, Inside The Tour De France - the Dutch sprinter explained how he himself had demurred when first faced with injections, asking if he couldn't take the supplements orally. He was told he could, but this wasn't efficient as it would tax the stomach and the liver and thus cause more problems. In the end Van Poppel gave in to the needle. But while he acknowledged that some riders needed recourse to supplements, he also pointed out to Walsh that this was not a universal truth:
People see injections as doping. They think if you take one before a race it has to be illegal, even though you have just taken something for an infection. A man riding the Tour de France needs more vitamins than the normal person. In my mind what is not on the [banned] list is not doping. But there are riders who ride the Tour de France without vitamins and all that stuff. It's possible.
Van Poppel went on to remind Walsh about Paul Köchli, the Swiss directeur sportif who believed that the received wisdom about it being impossible to win the Tour without drugs was wrong: "One day the immense majority of riders, the immense majority of the public, will confirm that." Among his roster of riders were Gilles Delion - who just about everyone always pointed to as one rider in the peloton who rode clean - and Steve Bauer. Here's what Van Poppel had to say to Walsh about Köchli:
I know Paul Köchli's team: they never rode with vitamins or anything else. He was against all this. He doesn't like injections, just Supradine. No needles, never. It's possible for a strong rider like Steve Bauer, who rode in Köchli's team, but when you're like Jos van Aert or Martin Earley, then maybe it's a problem. They are skinny, they haven't much reserves and they are likely to get ill.
Van Poppel, who clearly seems to have had some admiration for Köchli's principled approach, tried to explain his distaste for doping to Walsh, closing with this:
I have never been positive in my career. Please, don't let's talk about this. If you were positive, people would look at everything you've won and say you were once positive.
Van Poppel saw out another two seasons without tripping any positives and then hung up his wheels, becoming first a coach of the Dutch national women's squad, then becoming involved with Cervélo and this year taking up a position with Vacansoleil. Unfortunately for Van Poppel, not testing positive stopped being enough a long time ago. Today, people look at the Dutch sprinter and say he was once a member of PDM and then Festina. The syringe casts a long shadow.
Walsh spoke to Köchli. The Swiss directeur sportif had raced three years in the pro ranks, at the end of the sixties, before being forced out of the sport with health problems. He had started the 1968 Tour but was a DNF. The following year he rode with Jean de Gribaldy's Frimatic team. After he hung up his wheels, he became a cycling coach. In 1983 he became a directeur sportif with Bernard Tapie's La Vie Claire squad. In 1988 he formed his own team, Weinmann-La Suisse (later Helvetia-La Suisse), and that lasted through to 1992.
Greg LeMond has occasionally used Köchli's presence at La Vie Claire as evidence that there was no doping there during his time with the team: "Every rider on La Vie Claire was clean; that was Paul Köchli's big deal to make sure he had a clean team." This may have been true for some of the riders, but it definitely wasn't true for Kim Andersen. On this subject, Köchli was somewhat circumspect when speaking to Walsh:
About my experience in France, I cannot say no one ever took drugs. I never saw it but I know it might have happened. I started to change the team because of this reason. The difficulty was that at the time I went to La Vie Claire, the team was already built.
That Köchli was ahead of his time is evident in how you can hear the words of contemporary team principals in things he was saying two decades ago. Try this: "many riders are dependent [on drugs]. It is like a ritual, they cannot live without them." Today Dave Brailsford struts around saying similar things to British journalists as if he were the first to ever realise this.
Köchli didn't just kick against the pricks, with his no needles policy. When it came to the issue of the medicalisation of cycling he was something of a puritan. He was against the notion of teams having dedicated doctors as part of their personnel:
I never had a doctor in my team, except in the Tour de France and his only role was to treat those with a real health problem, a flu or an infection. [...] The presence of a doctor in a team is usually a bad thing. Riders are healthy, so why should they need a doctor? In my experience doctors are generally very bad physiologists because physiology is how a healthy organism functions and doctors are more used to unhealthy people. Their perspective is the wrong one.
Back then, nearly two decades ago, Walsh - today the big bad Irish wolfhound who is likened by some to a twenty-first century Torquemada leading the witch-hunt against Lance Armstrong - believed that the increasing medicalisation of cycling was a good thing. For Inside The Tour De France he interviewed Nicolas Terrados, team doctor with Manolo Sáiz's ONCE squad. Terrados's PhD thesis was on the effects of altitude training.
When Walsh spoke to the Spanish sports' physician during the 1993, four of the team's riders (Erik Breukink, Laurent Jalabert, Alberto Leanizbarrutia and Neil Stephens) had quit the Tour, something they ate at the hotel in Marseilles - bad fish? - giving them food poisoning. Manolo Sáiz's teams never did learn to stay away from the poisson.
Walsh applauded the professionalism Terrados and his ilk were bringing to cycling. But there is one area where Walsh seems to have had qualms, and that is the issue of ethics. In the interview, Walsh presses Terrados on this subject but the doctor refuses to give a clear answer, the best he can offer is that, ethically, doctors are better than soigneurs. Five years after Walsh interviewed him, Terrados was one of the many suspects rounded up at the 1998 Tour de France and charged with facilitating doping.
Back then, in 1993, Paul Kimmage too seemed to believe that the arrival of dedicated team doctors was a good thing for cycling. Here's what he had to say to Walsh for Inside The Tour De France:
The biggest problem the rider has is his own ignorance. There was no doctor in our team [RMO] to take a blood test, nobody to say 'Hold on, the exhaustion you feel is normal. You produced too much lactic acid in yesterday's time trial.' I mean there was nobody to explain what an anaerobic threshold was and I hadn't a clue. I didn't know what the B12 injection [I took during the 1986 Tour] did for me and I only agreed to it because the directeur [Bernard Thévenet] suggested it. Bringing well qualified exercise physiologists into teams should bring about an improvement. But they must explain things. Provided they do, the riders will understand their own bodies better and will be less ignorant about what they should and shouldn't be doing.
To a limited extent, one can understand where Kimmage was coming from here. But his belief that doctors would explain things seems naïve. It is true that in the days of soigneurs riders could be left ignorant of what was being administered to them. This is how Louison Bobet's soigneur, Raymond le Bert, excused Bobet's doping, saying that he administered doping products without telling the three-time Tour de France winner what they were. Plausible deniability I think some might call it. And, of course, this is the lifeboat Richard Virenque clung to during the Festina trial, claiming that Willy Voet had doped him without his knowledge.
But how different was it when the doctors came along? One of the most important team doctors in the nineties was Sabino Padilla, the Banesto physician, the man in charge of Miguel Induráin. Thomas Davy, a domestique with Banesto in the nineties, offered this testimony of his time with the Spanish squad, during the Festina trial in 2000:
I took EPO - I think. The doctor, Sabino Padilla, came into the riders' rooms after the stage. The syringes were prepared in advance [...] We asked what was in the syringes, but he never replied [...] No one ever found out. These injections were systematic during major races, especially the Tour de France. We imagined it must be something stronger than recovery products [...] We generally rode better after those injections.
At other teams he rode with, Davy seems to have been more aware of the drugs being administered. At Castorama it was corticosteroids. At Française de Jeux he was provided with EPO by Jef d'Hont.
It is easy to look at the likes of Bobet and Virenque and even Davy and wonder how they could not know that they were being administered dope. But what about those at the sport's entry level? Even asking questions about what was in the needle being administered to them was - is - no guarantee of getting an answer. Or even getting the right answer.
Consider the case of Greg Strock, as explained by David Walsh and Pierre Ballester in their LA Confidentiel. Strock was a member of the American junior national team in 1990, where he was coached by René Wenzel. The team was racing in Europe when Strock came down with a cold. A doctor prescribed antibiotics. When Wenzel - with advice from a French soigneur - found out, he told Strock to give up the antibiotics:
I was told I needed an injection and was given one. As well as that I was also given these vials and pills, approximately seven to ten days' worth that were to be taken each day in the case of the vials, and the pills twice a day. They were described to me as 'a variety of pills and extract of cortisone.' Other than a vaccination, this was the first time I had been given an injection.
At the time, we were starting to find pills pushed into our energy bars. I distinctly remember the first time it happened, biting into a bar and wondering why it tasted so awful. I bit into something strange and could see the cross section of a pill. At first, I thought someone at the store must have tampered with it; then I realised our own guys were doing this.
I was aware enough to ask questions: 'René, does this pose a health risk? Is it allowed?' I was reassured every time and it was the same for the other riders on the team. You could call it a brainwashing. We were told, 'Boys, at sometime in your professional career, you have to take products to increase performance.' Or 'Anyway, it's just something for babies, it's legal, there's no problem.'
It was their way of leading us into the doping culture, by minimising the bad that they do and reminding us that one say we were going to have to take the 'real things.'
When the Scottish soigneur Angus Fraser joined the team, Strock continued to ask questions, especially as Fraser administered injections as well as massages:
Sometimes the injection came first; other times the injection came afterward. At one point we were getting two or three injections a day. I questioned René: a bit. 'What is this?' 'Is it legal?' In his eyes I was a nuisance. 'Damn it, Greg, if you want to succeed as a pro, you are going to have to learn to trust your trainers and coaches. The pros on the Tour don't waste this kind of energy.' In England, I was told the injections were vitamins and cortisone extract. One time we were told it was an ATP injection.
The story of René Wenzel - Striock's coach at the time - is also worth considering. Walsh interviewed him for From Lance To Landis. Wenzel had been a Danish amateur in the eighties, before taking up coaching. While riding with a Belgian club he was sent to Bernard Sainz - the famed Dr Mabuse. Here's what Wenzel had to say to Walsh:
We were taken to a doctor, a man we knew as Dr Bernard. His full name was Bernard Sainz. We felt like pros when we went to him because if we were being put under medical supervision, that meant someone was taking us seriously. We also knew that Dr Bernard worked with Bernard Hinault at this time, and that was part of the sell for us. We felt honoured that Hinault's doctor would agree to work with us.
We'll skip blithely over Sainz's medical qualfication, as he seems to have skipped it too. Suffice it to say that he is a man who has a reputation. What Sainz did for Wenzel is what we're interested in here.
We had finished a training ride one afternoon, and those of us who lived in the area were told to stop at the directeur sportif's house. There was a box containing envelopes with each of our names on them. Inside each envelope was a bunch of tablets, one or two ampoules of liquid, and enough syringes to cover the doses outlined in the note describing what we were to do with the different products. There was also a substance that we were to take, one drop each day placed under the tongue.
We, the three Danish guys, had no idea. We hadn't injected ourselves before and so we ended up injecting each other. The French guys knew exactly what to do. [...] In his note telling us how to use the ampoules and tablets, Dr Bernard didn't say what the products were and there were no labels indentifying them. At the time I didn't think of it in terms of doping, but later on, yes.
* * * * *
The need for medical support is an aspect of the sport that some cyclists feel fans just don't get. Here's Allan Peiper again:
Medical support is really important, but I think that the outside world thinks that medical support always means drugs, that anything to do with a needle is drugs, but that is not the way it is, although I can appreciate that it's difficult for people to understand. I have had iron injected intravenously which I've heard is quite dangerous, but there was such a proven practice of doing it going on in cycling that it was accepted, and you could feel the effects immediately. Now that practice, and the mindset of allowing it to be done to yourself, might be hard to accept from someone outside of pro cycling.
Every now and then, the sport throws up a scandal which makes it even harder to fans to accept the sport's need for the level of medical support it today relies on. One such incident befell the PDM team at the 1991 Tour: the Intralipid affaire. Sam Abt had this to say about this affaire in his Champion: Bicycle Racing In The Age Of Induráin:
The use of hypodermic needles summoned up dramatic connotations in the popular mind, officials and observers of the sport admitted ruefully. 'If it comes out of a syringe, the public thinks it probably has to be dope,' says David Walsh, an Irish journalist and the biographer of his country's two leading riders, Stephen Roche and Sean Kelly. 'You're not dealing with a doping scandal here,' insisted a PDM rider who spoke only on condition of anonymity. 'What happened here was defensible. But,' he admitted, 'something went wrong somewhere.'
He, Walsh and others were quick to deny that there was anything sinister in the common, if unpublicised, practice of injections. 'Whatever it looks like,' Walsh said, 'many teams prefer injections to pills or syrup because injections work faster,' That was supported by the directeur sportif of a professional team, who also insisted on anonymity. 'Too many pills upset the stomach,' he said. 'So one injection is better than twenty pills.'
'Of course,' he added, 'nobody needs to take twenty pills either. With injections, however, there's a psychological advantage for some riders. It hurts, so they think they're getting something that the other riders don't have. Many traditional teams create a feeling with their riders that if they don't have injections, they feel less confident.'
Walsh's position on the Intralipid affaire is partly explained by the presence of Sean Kelly and Martin Earley on the PDM squad. He himself revisited the Intralipid affaire in his Inside The Tour de France. There he said:
cyclists' age-old desire to hitch their systems to an outside motor has created perceptions which are hard to change and the picture of a rider being injected leads to one conclusion: doping. It is a mistaken view, out of touch with the realities of modern sport but, for the armchair enthusiast, nothing good comes through the tip of a needle.
Over the nineties and into the noughties, the Intralipid affaire was followed by many incidents which only reinforced the belief of the armchair enthusiast that nothing good comes through the tip of a needle. Most notably during the 1998 Tour de France. With the Festina affaire raging, journalists became dumpster divers.
During the rest day in the race, France 2 TV news showed reporters rummaging though waste bags left by the Italian team Asics. They found empty medicine boxes. The Asics doctor, Max Testa was interviewed. He was furious at the way the piece was handled, as he explained to Sam Abt for the latter's In Pursuit Of The Yellow Jersey:
The interview was supposed to be about how we prepare the riders, but then they started to ask me about all the products we use. Then they asked me about the products they said they'd found in the bins, saying that one was banned, but that's wrong - it's not a banned product. We don't use EPO - we use vitamin B12, iron and folic acid, instead of EPO. When I saw the film it had changed what I said, but they can come and check everything we use and they won't find any banned products.
Testa was not the only one who would rue the way the media presented all medical waste as doping. At the 1999 Tour de Suisse Lampre were photographed dumping medical waste. As well as medicines, used syringes were found. Thirteen different substances were identified by subsequent laboratory analysis, four of them on the banned list.
In 1999, two Danish journalists revealed footage shot during the 1995 Vuelta a España, in which ONCE and Française de Jeux had their medical waste poured over. The Danish duo recovered syringes and empty ampoules, which they had tested. The ampoules showed traces of EPO.
Lance Armstrong, writing in Every Second Counts, mentions one incident involving his US Postal Services squad, when a France 3 news crew filmed team personnel disposing of medical waste:
According to our team doctor and chiropractor, after a Tour stage in Morzine [in 2000], they had bagged up the garbage left over from our medical care as they normally did. They didn't want to leave it at the hotel where we had stayed. However, the more unsavoury media was always picking through our garbage in its relentless hunt to prove me a doper, and we resented it. So they decided to frustrate the press by taking it from the hotel in Morzine and throwing it away in a roadside garbage can. This was their 'suspicious behaviour.' The 'medical waste' consisted of some wrappers and cotton swabs and empty boxes, nothing more.
As well as some wrappers and cotton swabs and empty boxes, the USPS medical waste, which was dumped nearly a hundred kilometres away from the team hotel, included one hundred sixty syringes. Among the eleven different products for which packaging was found was the calf-blood extract, Actovegin, which has had an on-again, off-again relationship with the banned list.
This was not the only time USPS were accused of disposing of their medical waste as far from a race as they could. In LA Confidentiel, Walsh and Ballester tell a story, concerning the team's Irish soigneur, Emma O'Reilly:
At the airport Armstrong handed O'Reilly a black bag wrapped tightly into a neat package. 'Look Emma,' he said, 'I didn't get rid of these, will you dump them for me?' They were syringes; empty syringes that Armstrong had used during the race [the Tour of Holland] and did not care to leave in his hotel room.
If it was only the media looking at medical waste cycling could probably cope with the problem, by doing what it always does, and shooting the messenger. But it's harder to do that when it's judicial authorities who are examining what some teams leave behind.
During the 2001 Giro d'Italia Italianpolice found an insulin syringe in a hotel room recently vacated by Marco Pantani. Initially he received an eight month ban, having been found guilty of sporting fraud. There then followed a ludicrous back-and forth between CONI, the UCI and CAS with the former reversing the eight month ban on appeal and the latter refusing to grant the UCI's wishes to reinstate it. At one stage the UCI refused to recognise CAS. And it all began with an insulin syringe carelessly discarded in a hotel room.
* * * * *
Cycling is promoted as being the healthiest sport there is. Yet consider how much medicine - legal medicine - is used in this sport. Consider how races today have become pharmacies on wheels. The French newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche revealed in July 2004 that eleven non-French teams starting that year's Tour had requested permission from the Agence Française de Sécurité Sanitaire des Aliments to import medicines - lotions, potions, needles and pills - many of which have no obvious application within cycling. On average, these teams were each importing more than eighty different substances. One team imported one hundred fifty-five substances.
Commenting on the volume and type of legal drugs being imported, Gérard Guillaume, doctor to the fdjeux.com team said:
The cyclist's pathology is hypochondria: falls, skin irritations, digestive, pulmonary or muscular complaints. That necessitates around thirty products, no more. You can add to that a couple of medicines in case of an emergency, like a heart attack, but no more. Nothing justifies such an arsenal of products.
Nothing justifies such an arsenal of products? Well, maybe nothing except a Therapeutic Use Exemption. The AFLD revealed that, at the 2008 Tour de France, seventy-six of the one hundred eighty riders who took the line in Brittany needed TUEs in order to be able to ride.
Walsh and Ballester, in LA Confidentiel, procured the drugs manifest of one team from the 2000 Tour. It listed one hundred twenty-six products. Six hundred and eighty-four individual packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to seven thousand four hundred and twenty-two individual doses. The 2001 manifest for the same team, which the authors also procured, covered one hundred and nineteen different products. Seven hundred and ninety packages were detailed, which the authors calculated to amount to eight thousand, three hundred and thirty-four doses. This is for a team of nine riders in a twenty-one day race. Do the math on the daily doses yourself.
Walsh and Ballester were minded to recall a comment from Daniel Delegove, the presiding judge at the Festina trial in 2000. Looking at the all the evidence he had heard about the use of drugs in cycling, Delegove declared: "These are not racers, they are cycling test tubes."
The authors also turned to Jean-Pierre de Mondenard, the author of the Dictionnaire du Dopage:
The main purpose of medication is to combat disease. Once medication is given to enhance performance, a doping system develops. Originally, sport had its virtues, but sport organised by man has eliminated them.
Would simply eliminating needles help return - or even impose - cycling's virtue? There have been too many false dawns in the past dozen years to believe this. But an initiative like the proposed needle ban does seem to suggest that some people in the UCI are finally willing to support those who wish to be virtuous, even if only so that in doing so a little bit of that virtue might rub off on them.
Nearly two decades after Paul Köchli was forced out of the sport by the impossibility of competing clean against Gen-EPO we may finally see our governing body embracing ideals he championed. Wherever he is now, I hope Köchli has a smile on his face at the prospect of a peloton-wide no needles policy.
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Ha! Patch makers rejoice
Looks like their stock is going to go up! Therapeutic Patches will be the new thing. Wait isn’t that what Floyd Landis was accused of? Hmm…
I think a needle ban in the current environment would be good theater and might help young riders. It won’t stop anybody who really wants to use microdosing, direct muscle injection (those kinds of injectors would raise an eyebrow now) or the like, but you would have to make more of an effort.
This is going into the classic issue of a slippery slope. If direct intravenous Fe is ok but EPO isn’t, that is a fine line. What happens when someone engineers a nice plant to contain something epo-like? No GM foods for cyclists. Now it is just bred in using slower but similar powered classical breeding techniques. Ok, here is a banned list of foods …
This is going into the classic issue of a slippery slope.
I guess that’s all I’m really showing here, albeit in a long-winded fashion. Would be interested to get some ans on some Qs though, partic the argument that needles are necessary, as oral / topical take-up inefficient.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Yes real data would help
Personally I feel that injection is of minimal benefit for standard vitamins. It was BS to hide the real injections. I am just making a wild a** guess (WAG) with that though. I would definitely think mineral supplements like Fe+ of whatever type might be more effective injected. Plus grand tour riders need to eat so much that there might be something to the take up issue, but still, does it really matter? The benefit would be dubious.
This reminds me of the water issue in long distance running. Stay hydrated is the conventional wisdom, and it is true, but that doesn’t mean you need so much, a lot less drinking than was thought is fine.
by Markk on Mar 17, 2011 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The water issue in cycling has gone back and forth. Today we seem to favour gallons of the stuff, back in the fifties and sixtes riders were supposed to be camels and hardly drink at all.
I am conscious that my attitude to meds is largely based on my personal attitude to them. When I was a kid I was hospitalised with a bone infection and came to hate the pills I was dosed up on, even getting to a point where – psychologically – I couldn’t swallow em (these days I can dry swallow pills when necessary). Generally, since then, I just don’t like meds.
I realise that others, who have a diff – better – experience of meds would take a diff attitude.
I certainly don’t think I’m right on this, but I do find the way meds are defended by some above interesting. Generally I just think that, for a healthy sport, the quantity of meds – legal and illegal – in cycling just looks wrong.
Is something I need to follow up with peeps who know better when I get a chance.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Re vitamins, though, it's culturally based, like so much medicinal practice
(thinking of countries that widely use suppositories, which aren’t used much in the UK, or injecting into the arm/backside)
(I don’t have a clue about what’s the best practice, btw, it’s just that “normal” in one country is bizarre in another…)
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 18, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
great post, as usual
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I hate the way some doctors treat you like a pin cushion when hunting for a vein. Sadistic bastards.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
excellent post. thank you very much
until the riders start policing each other, all the rules and banned product lists arent going to amount to much.
by mr. rogers on Mar 16, 2011 9:18 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
leaving it to the riders is what anquetil argued for. it’s what moser argued for. it’s what indurain and delgado argued for. you spotting a connection here?
self policing is no policing.
to help the riders make the right choices you have to create an environment in which they won’t be so easily tempted by the wrong ones.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
And there is the best point for banning needles!
It would remove that whole system, and make it necessary for a young rider to take much more self initiative to get into PED’s. Rather than taking a bunch of initiative to avoid them!
the self policing idea is, basically, where the sport has been.
anquetil, rejecting tests in the sixties, said he favoured education. many have echoed that since. and that, largely, is what the uci concentrated on. at the festina trial, when they were accused of encouraging doping, their defence was that they educated riders on the dangers of drugs.
i think for the uci education has been the fig-leaf they’ve been able to hide behind up to now. now someone seems to realise that real action is necessary.
i have severe doubts about the truth of this no needles story, but even the 48-hr stand-down for shooting up corticoids would be a step n the right direction.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
But all the rules in the world won’t stop it. Are they going to assign a personal drug screener to every pro rider and have them live, eat, sleep, and ride together? A personal snitch. I don’t think abstinence is a realistic goal. We still have a illegal drug ‘problem’ and there are more laws and money being directed at that than there will ever be towards a sport.
It will take a culture shift, it might take another 10-15 years, but the attitude will have to change before it really stops. All he old guard will need to be flushed out. Team owners, ds’s, the whole lot. Like you said an environment will need to be created where they are not easily tempted. You will still get some bad apples. Money always brings out the greatest in people but you would hope it would be far fewer than now.
Your posts have been great. They really show how entrenched it is and has been for a very long time. Are new rules going to stop it? I doubt it.
I disagree with you on the need for constant babysitting to eliminate doping.
Like with most cheating/Illegal behaviour there are a small minority who will do it regardless, there are those who will follow them if successful, those who will do what the majority are doing (cheating/not cheating), those who will only cheat if forced/led to it, and those who will not cheat for any reason.
The job of those running the sport is to police/enforce enough so that only those in the first category are still actually cheating. That should cut the cheaters down to something like >%10 of people. During Gen-EPO the pendulum was swinging the other way, and only those in the last category (those who refuse to cheat for any reason) DIDN’T cheat. Again probably >%10 of riders.
Right now we are probably around %10-30 of riders doing some level of doping (the determined cheaters, the first level of followers, and a minority of those who do what every one else does).
JMHO.
'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia
by bought with blood on Mar 17, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
the constant babysitting was a joke
it would never happen anyway. besides you already have people keeping track of their daily lives….they are called teammates and directors and team owners and so on…..if all of those people want a clean version of cycling then it will happen. right now it seems like only the fans and a handful of teams truely want that.
the other problem is there isnt anyone running the ‘sport’. the uci runs the uci. the teams run the teams. race organizers…well you see my point.
by mr. rogers on Mar 17, 2011 12:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
also
after reading all of fmk’s very informative posts and the general reaction of the pros when someone gets popped, my gut tells me the number of users is probably higher than that. maybe not consistent institutionalized blatent doping but some form of it.
by mr. rogers on Mar 17, 2011 1:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If 40-50 or 60 percent of the peleton is doping and the combination of Bio passport and Random out of competition testing isn't doing anything,
then it is simply time to give up. Its why I can’t believe the levels are that high anymore. Too many cops on the road with radar guns for most guys to speed. A small minority but not a majority anymore. In the Naughites yes I believe the majority 80-90+ percent doped. I believe the sea change has occurred and we are in an ebb tide at the moment.
'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia
by bought with blood on Mar 17, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
i hope so too
but the uci has a history of making it look like they are doing something when they arent. there is no test for hgh. no test for pumping your blood back into yourself. cant catch anyone if you arent testing. no positives=clean!
i hope the passport helps with this but im not holding my breath.
by mr. rogers on Mar 17, 2011 3:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
funny thing about speed limits
they legalize “driving” up to the limit.
Which is exactly what happened in the h-crit years, and, a cynic would conclude, based on the testimony given by T. Frei and others, that’s also what’s happening with the bio-passport.
Thus, “giving up” would amount to:
assuming that the claim that professional cycling without doping is impossible AND
also assuming that what the bio-passport does is provide something of a level doping playing-field while sorta regulating the health-risks.
I’m not sure that I’m prepared to grant those two assumptions yet.
Question of degree.
Some people still drive very drunk. A larger number drive after a beer or two—near the limit, but not quite over. But the era of it being normal / generally accepted / funny to drive in a wasted state has, mercifully, passed (NB your particular geographic and/or social milieu may differ).
Far fewer people are doped to the gills. That’s better for them, healthwise. It’s better for their opponents in a practical / tactical sense. Therefore it’s better for racing.
"dumped for Greipel?!"
Are they going to assign a personal drug screener to every pro rider and have them live, eat, sleep, and ride together?
Personally, I like that idea. I think we could sell that package to Endemol. Take the Girobio logic and extend it season long. Stick cameras in the dorms and it could be a killer TV prog, real 360-degree thinking for the execs.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
figure out how to fund it and all you have to do is convince phat pat and maybe 2 others. you wont need the riders to agree to it.
anybody have pat’s# ?
by mr. rogers on Mar 18, 2011 12:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It will take a culture shift, it might take another 10-15 years, but the attitude will have to change before it really stops. All he old guard will need to be flushed out.
You do realise how deep the roots of the prob are? It’d be like the Augean Stables or even Sisyphus.
Also, where do you draw the line? I really don’t want to see peeps like Jonathan Vaughters drummed out of the sport or something he did back then. WHo’s going to make up the Star Chamber that decides who stays and who goes?
I think you’re being unduly pessimistic (and, because I add to the air of pessimism with these stories, I appologise for any role I have in that)> Cycling’s come a long way in the last half dozen years. The culture is changing and the change is visible.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
id say there is an obvious difference between people like vaughters, stapleton, and brailsford compared to saiz and gianetti(sp?) and others.
yes, i am probably being overly pessimistic, but it doesnt dampen my enjoyment of the sport in any way. neither do your posts fmk. i find the topic interesting but it doesnt color my opinion of the sport that much. its hard no matter what. i can respect that.
by mr. rogers on Mar 18, 2011 11:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
id say there is an obvious difference between people like vaughters, stapleton, and brailsford compared to saiz and gianetti(sp?) and others.
So you’d head the Star Chamber? :)
And why do people always have to try and get me started on Brailsford?!?
Where does Kim Andersen fit in for you? In or out?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Great post highlighting the complexity of the issue
Obviously there is a large mental/placebo effect in play here. Combined with a a lot of faith put in the “wisdom” handed down through soigneurs and older riders there is perhaps an unhealthy attachment to largely unnecessary practices that serve as a backdoor into doping?
On the wisdom handed down through the years side, the Wenzel / Strock story, and how the two are so similar, had me thinking of Philip Larkin – man hands on misery to man.
How necessary the attachment to the needle is I’d like answered. How true is the take-up argument used to defend needles? Do cyclists really need the level of supplements we currently use?
On the placebo effect – isn’t this something a lot more ppl are looking at around the supplements / energy drinks industry?
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
I found the list of meds the teams import incredible. 8000 doses. Fuck.
I’m tempted to say this would be easier to control if there was an actual power center leading the sport but that would probably make it easier to brush under the rug as well….who knows. This issue is so complicated. Some many facets.
Well … there is a power centre. It’s just a question of getting the right faction into power in the UCI. Plus I think that people like Vaughters – as much as I like making jokes at him – are doing a good job for the sport, helping to push things along. Teams with no needles polics – and I think beyond Garmin others have tried it, have heard Francaise de Jeux and Geox both mentioned, haven’t had time to check the truth of that – leading by example makes it easier for the UCI to take decisions which, even five years back would have been much harder to take.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
yes, but it seems that the uci is only concerned with the image of cycling not the actual sport or its participants. that stems from the ioc and their desire to have all olympic sports project this air of pure competition. isnt that the root of all the equipment rules and the radio rules? they seem set on holding onto some archaic romantic version of cycling that maybe never existed.
by mr. rogers on Mar 18, 2011 12:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The "how necessary?" question is likely to go unanswered
Much like the radio issue I think any discussion will get bogged down in the insiders’ firm stand that they are needed vs. an outsider opinion that they are not. Insiders will have the benefit of saying the outsiders are ignorant of the reality and in the end it will be fairly impossible to make a fair judgement of who is right and wrong.
Aye. Only answers you get are from people who have used needles, and you don’t know if what you’re getting from them is reality or just a defense mechanism they’ve constructed to justify what they did.
I like the DS Abt quotes, who agrees that needles more efficient than taking twenty pills, only to add you shouldn’t be taking twenty pills. Wonder who he was.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Bu-uu-ut
Not all people who’ve used needles ARE like that. I can totally believe that a clean-as-driven-snow rider could and should still be able to eg get adequate rehydration/take vitamins like B12 that are better injected. What happens when eg Lizzie Armitstead is diagnosed anaemic? If it’s better for her physically to have injections, it’s insane to say she should compromise her recovery/general health.
It has the danger of sounding like “only people who are in perfect physical health should be allowed to cycle, because some people dope” and that bothers me. I don’t think the fight against doping should stop some completely innocent riders from being able to compete. I know, fmk, that you are not saying this at all, but I am hugely dubious about this kind of blanket ban – esp when it doesn’t stop doping (eg the thing the guy was taking under his tongue, patches, pills etc)
(I come from a perspective where I used to work in policies around illegal drugs & alcohol, and there are always politically-motivated suggestions that eg all methadone should be banned in drugs treatment, and that the only methods promoted should be abstinence-based and/or non-medicinal. Which drives me crazy, because it is a great soundbite, and sometimes methadone is used inappropriately by the client and/or drug treatment providers, but it doesn’t reflect the huge range of situations people are in. There’s a difference between a general political standpoint (doping is bad, some people use needles to dope, needles are therefore bad) and medical practice…. I know I sound ranty, sorry!)
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 18, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
My position is: if you need TUEs, vitamin injections, hydrations IVs, et cetera to be competitive
then by definition you are not. Go ride your bike for fun and get a proper career. Much healthier in all respects.
Really? So Katie Compton, for instance, shouldn't ride because of her thyroid condition?
I just can’t buy into that – it sounds too much like only the pure should be allowed to compete
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 18, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly like Compton, yes
I think it’s wrong that she can use all sorts of steroid cocktails just so she can be on the front of every race. If she doesn’t take them, her asthma prevents that in some number of races. Too bad, that’s life.
My oxygen transport system isn’t good enough to be competitive in most races. It’s unfair! Can I haz EPO pleaz?
Does she use steroid cocktails, though?
I was talking about her thyroid meds (presumably thyroxine) – she says she has underactive thyroid – if it’s anything like any other underactive thyroid I’ve read about, she’ll need to take some kind of replacement thyroid hormones to function (thyroid affects metabolism, and some brain functions – without my thyroxin my brain doesn’t work, I get very fat and sluggish, no energy, slurred speech, random pain and eventually, if left long enough without treatment, psychosis and death – hooray!) (a friend of mine worked in geriatric medicine and was always angry that underactive thyroid was often misdaignosed as senility through laziness of doctors)
So I’m talking about meds that don’t affect your performance, but affect your ability to function on a day-to-day basis. If medicine can replace what a body doesn’t provide (insulin, thyroxine) then that isn’t about performance enhancement. To say to some person (esp to some kid) who’s great at football, or cycling, that they can’t compete because they have a medical condition that doesn’t affect them is just not right.
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 18, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes she uses steroids for her asthma
“Finally got the dose & mix dialled in” or words to that effect.
There's a Pieter Wimsey short story
The Incredible Elopement of Lord Peter Wimsey, based on thyroid deficiency cretinism. (Sorry, that’s the correct term, or was then).
Problem of course is that there may be a tendency to overcook the meds slightly, and put the resulting hyperthyroid-like symptoms to good use. So there needs to be a very fair and honest description of what “normal” looks and feels like.
Flatbagger posted here at some point about riding after his injections. I felt, and said, that there was nothing wrong with following his regular injection cycle, knowing that it would sometimes leave him with extra T at an event, and sometimes leave him with minimal T, but that it would be a bit dodgy, while riding for results, to schedule the T injection around the racing. He then did a pretty kick-ass job in a race where he was worried about feeling so very, very low “T,” proving (yet again) that he’s a lot more ballsy than most people with actual balls—independent of his T levels.
Maintenance meds that can have an auxiliary effect on performance have no easy answer. But it’s generally not hard to define the likely conflict of interest, and set acceptable levels of dosing. Maybe it’s 5% less than would otherwise be medically indicated for the condition, maybe it’s based on testing blood levels—but it should be possible to deal with chronic conditions yet not give someone a grossly inappropriate edge.
"dumped for Greipel?!"
I once went through a bad time thinking I could overdo my meds slightly & lose weigh
but the associated mental freak-outs & anxiety were bad for everything else in my life (sadly! I was 24 and it seemed like a simple solution…) – I guess you’d need to balance that too, because you could be a little bit faster, but if your judgement is a little bit off too…
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 18, 2011 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly! And it may have been within a "normal" range, even.
And how to define “normal” is itself not trivial. After all, pro riders are not the general population. One could argue that they are self-selected for being a bit nervy, and maybe even for having naturally high thyroid levels. Asking them “what feels right?” may not be at all the same answer as “what’s average in the population,” nor “what’s average in the peloton.”
"dumped for Greipel?!"
Gah, or any diabetic, ever? There are diabetics playing all kinds of pro sports
I just don’t think it’s right to tell anyone that because they have a medical condition that’s treatable with drugs that other people abuse, they shouldn’t be allowed to compete in sports, if they’re physically able to. It’s punishing the “innocent” because of a) a physical anomaly they have no control over and b) a minority of people who cheat, and that is unfair.
(It’s also potentially discriminatory in re European disability discrimination standards…)
(Yes, yes, I know the words I’m using are emotive, but I can’t think of any blander ones!)
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 18, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
They are allowed all right!! They are just not very good at it.
I am too short to play basketball. That’s unfair! I should be allowed to play in the NBA! Gimme HGH!
Never mind the emotive, I don't mind
I just think “physical anomaly they have no control over” and “discrimination” are unattainable positions. Albeit somewhat flippantly, I gave two examples of physical attributes I have no control over that prevent me from competing at the level of sport in which I am interested.
And as to discrimination; some people are just not fit for some jobs, physically. A blonde can’t be a ginger hair model unless she resorts to artificial colouring. I can’t be a fighter pilot unless I resort to all sorts of drugs to improve my vision, hearing, coordination and reaction speed. So I got turned down for the job, perhaps not even because the drugs were illegal but because there were candidates better suited to the job, physically. That’s totally fair discrimination. I now have 1 million minus 1 careers to choose from. I am not prevented from working because of physical attributes I have no control over.
But tallness alone wouldn't make you good at basketball
I’m not talking about having a right to be great at sports, I’m talking about people who are already good/have the potential to be good not being banned from competing because of medical conditions that are nothing to do with performance enhancement. Saying there can be no Team Type One because of (eg) David Millar is ludicrous – especially when the hardened doper types can use a hundred and one other ways to get the dope into their systems.
by Sarah Connolly on Mar 18, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
But that's just it: what if my height was the only limiting factor?
What if I were a top level athlete, perfect in every way for the game, except for being too short? What if taking hgh would magically solve this, would you let me?
Should Oscar Pistorius be allowed to compete in regular (open) running races? I would be inclined to say yes. But what if another athlete opted to replace his healthy limbs with carbon springs? Probably ban him. What if a third one got a doctor to declare that it was medically necessary to replace his legs, even while it wasn’t, and we didn’t know?
Competing at an elite level or professionally (~mostly no difference these days) is a privilege, not a right. I am comfortable with denying all artificial enhancement to competitors. I’m OK with them training and eating, though. I have not made my mind up on altitude tents but I think I don’t like ’m.
if you need TUEs, vitamin injections, hydrations IVs, et cetera to be competitive then by definition you are not.
Oh good. Time to play my Hippocrates card:
"The athletic development is not natural; much better the ordinary healthy condition of the body."
:)
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
All sorts of things that can't be taken up well digestively
can be taken up topically, or intranasally, or whatever.
I was looking into this for a friend with pernicious anemia. That’s a largely / frequently genetic disease caused by the body’s inability to properly absorb vitamin B12 from the GI tract. Most people use injections, or take mega doses and hope some is absorbed by the GI tract. But apparently you can also jam enough of the stuff into nose spray, and get it in that way.
Mind you, I’m sure the same is 100% true for any number of doping products. Certainly any steroid, though I also bet you’d get some nasty side effects if you did it for a significant length of time.
For that matter, there are any number of meds that work great topically (on the skin). I use voltaren (topical diclofenac) and feldene gel (topical piroxicam) for joint pain, because my gut can’t handle NSAIDs. (Why dose your gut, above all, and your whole body, secondarily, to deliver the meds to the site of action, when you have eyes and hands that can target the stuff directly?).
"dumped for Greipel?!"
funny . . . doc who delivered me (and is, I think, still kicking)
insisted that it made way more sense to grind up aspirin tablets, make a paste with a little water, and apply directly to the site of sore muscles.
I think he used your exact words.
More common in europe?
At least, that’s where I find the feldene, OTC. The other I get as free samples from my doc, who seems to otherwise have no great interest in prescribing it, despite my enthusiastic reviews. I guess I could try the pill slurry instead (good tip, that!).
"dumped for Greipel?!"
Not all people who’ve used needles ARE like that.
Ah but you would say that, wouldn’t you? :)
We keep coming back to medical need and I keep coming back to the same answer: TUEs. Rehydration has been out for six years now, unless you get TUE. A ban – of drugs, IVs – needles – is not a total ban, it’s only a ban subject to exceptions.
It has the danger of sounding like "only people who are in perfect physical health should be allowed to cycle, because some people dope" and that bothers me.
Def not meaning to say that. And I don’t think that’s what Garvélo and the other times who have gone needleless are saying. I promise – promise – I will pick up this issue more when the TT1 book arrives.
the only methods promoted should be abstinence-based and/or non-medicinal.
Hey, I was raised Roman Catholic. I know how that one doesn’t work :)
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
by fmk on Mar 19, 2011 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wanted to give this one two recs
Really helpful.
Am I allowed to repost my comments from the no needles thread? Feel like the discussion is in two places.
Enrico Carpani , the UCI PR guy, gave me a response to some Q’s I mailed re this. Basically, they are considering a no needles ban, they are considering introducing it by the Giro and the same goes for the 48hr stand-down for shooting up corticosteroids under a TUE. It will be a UCI change, not a WADA one, and will apply “to all cycling categories.” BIG change to introduce in such a small amount of time.
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
wow, agree, that's a big change
But they sound like they are really worried about another bust/controversy at the Giro. Italian cycling seems to be just starting to recover. They know the sport can’t afford continual PR damage at the major races.
I don’t think doping cases that are clearly individual choices damages the sport too much, but widespread or team sponsored doping is fatal to the business model of sponsored teams.
Dunno about their motivation. You never know about motivation. And I suppose at the back of you head you have to remember the UCI is now at war with the AIGCP and the CPA. How this plays in that is worth considering.
I will be majorily suprised if a sport-wide needle plan was in place by the Giro.
How such a ban would impach beyond the top tier is worth thinking about …
pounding along in three ratios like a sonata
like a Ritter with pommelled scrotum atra cura on the step
Botticelli from the fork down pestling the transmission
tires bleeding voiding zeep the highway
Good point
Trying to paint themselves as clean before the rival organisation gets up so they can paint it as dirty? (Might not be hard of Bruyneel is running it.)





















