Polemica Baby! Giro Stage 2 Sprint Replay
by Jen See on May 8, 2011 4:03 PM EDT
in Giro d'Italia
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PrintDid you get the Amarone? I told you to get the Amarone. It's day two of the Giro d'Italia, and already we have the polemica. Scroll to 3:22, and you can catch the replay. Cavendish, he looks so Italian waving his arms around at the finish. I'm not sure what the HTC-Highroad rider is saying to Alessandro Petacchi right there, but I feel certain it was Not Nice. The two riders later awkwardly shook hands on the post-race show with Mario Cipollini playing the peace-maker. Cavendish feels certain Petacchi came off his line and pinched him. To me, it looks like Petacchi moves to his left, but he never really puts Cavendish into the barricades. No harm, no foul, I'd say but I wouldn't expect Cavendish to agree with me.
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maybe you should edit to swap out gav's univsports video with the rai one.
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
feel free to replace it
I couldn’t find anything else easily.
by Jen See on May 8, 2011 4:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Imagine that
American cyclist fans on the watchable side of geo-restrictions
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
Who said Petacchi tried to put him in the barricades?
That’s not the issue. At 9:43 in the video Jens linked to you can see Petacchi looking over his left shoulder, and then cut Cavendish off. I’d say there’s harm in that, but if it’s big enough to bump Petacchi down is another matter.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
I understand Cav
1 – Ale Jet goes, Cav comes the the left, Peta swerves to the left
2 – Cav realises what’s happening. He doesn’t want to get boved in, so he switches sides. He now tries to pass on the right hand side. Peta swerves to the right
3 – Cav swiches back to the left, Peta swerves again to the left and beats Cav with no more than 10 cm
I understand Cav’s frustration, but Petacchi did it so cleaverly (professionally) that he can’t be penalized for this. He remained ahead of Cav all the time and never swerved brutally. It’s so subtle, you only notice it when you pay attention to it. Overhead cam showed it best.
+100
This is it to a “T”
The only reason that this was allowed to take place in the first place is that Peta jumped Cav.
Don’t expect to see that happen again soon (been about 2 yrs since the last time it did, right?).
For my money Peta’s actions were intentional and deliberate, but just on the right side of the line that allows him to keep the win..
Is that racing? I bet that this would have a a whole different perspective being painted on it if the roles were reversed….
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
by muk on May 8, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
+100
I cant think of a sprinter alive and racing that wouldnt complain as they crossed the line. They knew they’d been just been done over and lost the bike race.
Dont get outjumped when at the head of the race
adding
Alejet proper jumped him – again
got a length + quite easily, thereby gained the driving seat and the licence to weave, and then made the most of it.
Cav went from the head of the race to trying to get past, and lost. Looked fierce quick though.
(Wish someone would ask Cav the reasons for why the bike wobbled. That may have been a masterful piece of bike handling in the circumstances or an error)
Is there a licence to weave?
I think not.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on May 8, 2011 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really, no
But the straight line rule is honored more in the breach than the observance when it is done safely.
Petacchi always had daylight behind him when he moved, and left just about enough time for Cav to still challenge for the win, Keeps win.
But the point remains that Cav couldn’t get away with the same without opprobrium.
You know, I read his Twitter comments about how he couldn't get away with it
But I only remember him getting DQ’ed three times in the last few years.
2008 – For blocking Thor in the ToC
2009 – For blocking Thor in the Tour
2010 – For wiping out Haussler and half the sprinters
I guess you can kind of count Renshaw last year.
That hardly amounts to evidence that Cavendish couldn’t get away with that sprint.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
Ask the question the other way
Do you think Cav would have kept the race if situation reversed and what would the post race comments look like? I suspect the answers are no and markedly different.
But, that said, there does exist a layer of the victim to Cav on this, and it may be overplayed but it seems real to him though. He has mentioned it before today.
Perhaps there is some sympathy to had for his viewpoint.
The tour Thor thing was minor at best. The Renshaw headbutt day ended up with people arguing Cav should be demoted as well or Renshaw wouldn’t learn, it wasn’t a real punishment etc (based on what rule I dont know).
The impression he has may not be true in reality, but it seems quite heartfelt, and teamwide on occasion.
Adding today if anything should add up to Cav getting a bit of break for Suisse. He showed admirably that if coming from behind in a sprint and you keep your head up, then even if the rider ahead is moving off line, you can avoid him (and if necessary protest later)
Not saying Cav was blameless at Suisse but there is only one rider with his head down in this picture.
You're right about the TdS
Proper sprinters keep their head up watching for Cavendish to come crashing into them at all times.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
Petacchi moved a lot further across
(about half a road) and was avoided.
It’s all in the two videos.
opprobrium
new word for me, thanks
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Now you can invite your buddies over for an opprobrium and they'll think you are serving imported beer.
Sign seen at entrance of local bike shop, " \o/ spoken here.". - Okay, I made it up, but wouldn't that be cool?
I'm not sure why you would insult my buddies like that.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
It's not a common word to use in everyday conversation, have fun with it.
Sign seen at entrance of local bike shop, " \o/ spoken here.". - Okay, I made it up, but wouldn't that be cool?
First time I saw it now
Not a nasty sprint by Ale Jet but it seems to me if they want to have a rule about keeping your line they should penalize riding like that. If they don’t, I don’t see much point in the rule being there at all?
It's nearly impossible to sprint 100% straight
they always swerve a little and if there are no bad intentions, there’s no need to penalize. I don’t think Petacchi wanted to ride Cav into the barriers.
Box him in? Yes
Make him cras? No
But the rule isn't there just to avoid crashes is it?
I thought the idea was to ensure everyone had a fair chance?
Absolutely true
but when did you last see a group sprint where everybody held their line perfectly? Sprinting just doesn’t work that way. A certain amount of ‘movement’ is always allowed.
I wasn't too kind to Cav's protests in the live threads
But re-watching, Ale-Jet does move a bit too far to the left. Cavendish is ramping up his speed and is forced to ease off when Ale-Jet gets directly in front of him. Cavendish didn’t really have to room to keep going full gas on Ale-Jet’s left.
Still Cavendish’s fault for letting Ale-Jet get the jump on him. But the pro-Cavendish camp has a point on this one.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
"Sprinting doesn't work that way"
You are right, it doesn’t, but it could very well work that way if a more strict interpretation of the rules were applied across the board. The question is, do we want that to happen? Me, I do, because I don’t think blocking should be part of sprinting. Just my 50 øre.
"do we want that to happen?" I don't.
There are many sprints where things are at least a little dodgy. Each situation is more or less unique but as long as no one is unnecessarily put into peril, let it go. This wasn’t bad.
by sebastiandeluded on May 8, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Sprints are for “big” boys. If guys can’t handle the action get out of the kitchen.
Generally I tend to want sports to change, for the better (because I'm such a saint..).
I understand the appeal of the undeniable suspense and drama that blocking tactics add to bunch sprints. I just don’t buy into the idea that a lax and sometimes biased (?) interpretation of the hold-your-line rule is the way to go just because there is a tradition of doing things that way and a feeling that blocking is somehow intrinsically part of a sprint. While I can appreciate the skill Ale-jet exhibited today in making a couple of seemingly quite safe blocks on Cav (easing his way first left and then right without cutting in abruptly), I’d rather see sprinters hold their line allowing for a fairer (like Jens pointed out above) and less dangerous sprint. This will not happen unless race organizers or the UCI decide to keep sprinters in line.
I understand some fans desire to create a "track" like sprint
discipline on the road, I just don’t agree with the concept. There are a couple of reasons:
1. It will become almost impossible to conduct a sprint without having a bunch of old guys deciding the winner.
2. It will take away a great deal of the “hidden” tactics and favour sprinters with massive trains.
3. It will remove a lot of the polemica, which to me is a critical part of masssprints.
I like old school sprinting much more than this new softie, softie approach. Soon we will have Ale-Jet, Cav and Farrar doing a group hug after every sprint, even though 2 of them lost.
by Uphill on May 9, 2011 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
honestly, didn't look so bad to me
Ale-jet swerved a bit, but he never boxed Cav, Cav had the space if he had the speed. He just started his sprint too late, imo.
+100
Cav reacted too slow today. Cav will try harder and smarter on stage 3 I hope.
The acceleration required
The thing is, at this speed, you need the sort of room that Peta robbed Cav of to be able to pass someone. They are already near to top speed, you don’t just leap past someone at that speed.
By moving across the road like that, even with “room to spare”, Peta robbed Cav of any ability to get past him.
Cunning? Sure.
Sportsman like? Maybe….
Did Peta win? Sure, and without a relegation……
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
by muk on May 8, 2011 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Cav should have gone right the whole time.
Truth is, Cav’s top-end isn’t there yet.
If it was he could have gotten around that master’s-level dinosaur.
Master's Level Dinosaur
I love it!
Cav’s top end speed IS there, look at how often he stopped and started in the last 100m and still only lost by a tyre width – to a Master’s Level Dinosaur…
A Dinosaur who is no that unfamiliar with stage wins in the GT’s….
In the end I think that my signature/tag line describes a big chunk of what happened today. Age and treachery, albeit judged to be legal treachery, overcame youth and skill….
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
by muk on May 8, 2011 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Lack of top speed.
Agree. At ToT Ale-Jet looked stale compared to Guardini. If Cav was at his prime, Ale-Jet would have looked like Kloeden yesterday.
No top end?
He had that funny little skid about 100m out (RAI reckon that his front wheel brushed against Peta’s rear), was still a bike length behind at 50m yet lost by a couple of cms
imo, cav got schooled
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Canada not allowed to watch your video
sorry about that
Cav gives Peta the win on later twitter posts.
Heat of the moment reaction is how I read it. Yeah Ale did a sweet job of blocking Cav, but never appears to put him in danger.
Anyone who has every thought a working Photojournalist has a glam job needs to rethink...
"...sweet job of blocking..."
bolloocks
We’d have a serious Cav hate fest going on here if the roles had been reversed.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
When was the last time Cav received any grief? Tour de Suisse?
That was well deserved. He took out Boonen and Haussler both. There was another time too, after that, where he took some guys out going around a corner. TdF I think. Yes, there are those here who dislike him. He’s kind of a polarizing figure. But hate? nah. And there are a lot of people here who defend him, myself included. He’s entertaining, he’s honest, he’s emotional and isn’t afraid to show it.
by sebastiandeluded on May 8, 2011 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I tend to agree that if Cav had done the exact same sprint as Peta, then we yell at him....def double standard...
That said, if Cav got the jump on Peta that occurred today, Cav’s gone. I think he lost because he got jumped and Peta dictated the sprint.
Cav said he stopped and started 3 times on his sprint. He had room to go left even with petacchi drifting left…but Cav tucked in behind him and then started right only to check up and finally decide left. My opinion…cav’s decision not to go right (his initial gut move) cost him – actually, getting jumped in the first place.
Anyway – my view from the couch… :)
Reigning Champion: 2010 Tour de France Stage Predictor Game Winner
Future Champion: 2011 Giro de Italia Stage Predictor Game Winner (or I'd settle for just kicking Phil's ass)
I agree Cav made all kinds of mistakes
and yet he lost by only what. Peta played a crafty little game of dodge and the judges cut him some slack, lucky him.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
exactly why I think Cav lost this...but he's fast. I picked him for tomorrow...
Reigning Champion: 2010 Tour de France Stage Predictor Game Winner
Future Champion: 2011 Giro de Italia Stage Predictor Game Winner (or I'd settle for just kicking Phil's ass)
by JustJoshinYa on May 8, 2011 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Italian winning in an Italian race with Italian jury
You do the math…
Robert Gesink on the difference between football and cycling: "For us it's a lot harder to get yellow"
"... if Cav had done the exact same sprint as Peta, then we yell at him....def double standard..."
If the roles were reversed then we’d have the arrogant Cav, making belittling remarks about Petacchi for complaining. Petacchi is some what isolated from our wrath because of the language barrier, of course when he punches the bus and has to leave the race with a broken hand we capiche.
Sign seen at entrance of local bike shop, " \o/ spoken here.". - Okay, I made it up, but wouldn't that be cool?
Still trying to figure out why Cav dodged left again.
Looked like it was a cleaner run on the right even if Petacchi was drifting over that way. Maybe yanked on the bars a bit too hard, that’s why the wheel slip forced him left?
My fruit bowl is full of sex wax--gavia
I should have read further before posting above...I agree.
Cav made 2 mistakes in my book:
- Got jumped.
- He seemed to tuck in, then go right, checked up (peta drifted right some too)…then went back left.
Reigning Champion: 2010 Tour de France Stage Predictor Game Winner
Future Champion: 2011 Giro de Italia Stage Predictor Game Winner (or I'd settle for just kicking Phil's ass)
I'd have told
Ale-jet to fuck off, too, if I were Cav. One is part of it, two is eh, how it goes sometimes. Three is where I tell you to go to hell. That said: 1) that was some terribly clever riding by Ale-jet, and 2) does anyone have less room to complain about finish line antics than Cav? (Maybe McEwen?)
Anyway, Cav, you got pink. Man up.
Heh.
+1
When was the last time that the winner of the sprint was the one complaining.
"It's really who can just push the biggest gear the fastest and the hardest, and I want to be that guy" - GHH
+many (man up)
But stop all the whiny blame the world type stuff. Lets get back to the man against man twittering, i.e. things like winning SSR’s etc. Much more fun.
Looked to me like*
1. Petacchi is behind Cavendich and Renshaw.
2. Petacchi jumps both, but then takes his place in front of Renshaw, so ‘stealing’ front position from Cavendish (once Renshaw is blown).
3. Cavendish tries to come around, but simply can’t do it, and at one point early on seems to lose a fair bit of traction in the rear tyre. It’s at that point he heads left, as that was the way his bike was pointing after the skid.
4. Petacchi, if anything, makes room for him on the left.
I don’t really have a problem with it. I thought Petacchi was pretty straight except for taking front position from Renshaw, but he was going much faster than Renshaw at that point, so I don’t see it as a blocking move. Although it meant that Cavendish wasn’t simply able to go straight to the line, but had to come around Petacchi.
*Caution: opinion based on near total ignorance of sprinting and deprivation of daylight.
Really?
I thought Petacchi was pretty straight except for taking front position from Renshaw,
Seriously? Have you seen the overhead? I thought that about the only thing that was agreed upon was that Peta did NOT take a straight line to the finish.
Ahhh, it doesn’t really matter. Cavendish will go on to win other stages, Peta, maybe, maybe not. They will both head home when the road goes up (and it goes seriously UP before this Giro is done).
I’ve been following this sport long enough to know that tomorrow’s stage will bring us more to talk about and by the end of the week almost everyone will have forgotten about the Cavendish/Petacchi sprint, let alone the brilliant effort by Lang today to secure a jersey for his team..
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
by muk on May 8, 2011 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Petacchi usually finishes the Giro
Even Cavendish is 1 for 2.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
It's amazing how people's dislikes impair their vision of things.
“I saw Petacchi sprint a dead straight line, so I guess he was pissed that Petacchi won,” he said matter-of-factly. (Tyler Farrar)
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Ha, you should give him a break.
His vision was probably obscured with all the people and bikes in front of him.
by sebastiandeluded on May 8, 2011 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
he might have been confused watching Hondo and Renshaw cross the line...
you know, as they peeled off from leading out Peta and Cav and sprinted for 42nd place…
Reigning Champion: 2010 Tour de France Stage Predictor Game Winner
Future Champion: 2011 Giro de Italia Stage Predictor Game Winner (or I'd settle for just kicking Phil's ass)
by JustJoshinYa on May 8, 2011 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought he forgot his Transition Lenses.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
which reminds me...Garmin had 15 guys on the front at one time (might be exagerating just a touch)...
why the hell can’t farrar compete in these sprints? He seems to lack just a touch of the shoulder banging. It seems like if he’s not 2nd or third, he just washes backward – and I know he’s won GT stages too…
He’s not a bang away sprinter is he…he just needs it perfect.
Reigning Champion: 2010 Tour de France Stage Predictor Game Winner
Future Champion: 2011 Giro de Italia Stage Predictor Game Winner (or I'd settle for just kicking Phil's ass)
by JustJoshinYa on May 8, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Needs a track experience...or three.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
See what happens when you lose sponsors?
“During a race, I need perfect vision.”
- Tyler Farrar, Garmin-Transitions.
on the replay in the bus?
"It's really who can just push the biggest gear the fastest and the hardest, and I want to be that guy" - GHH
Wow
“Transitions Photochromic Lenses quickly adjust and adapt in changing light to help protect from the sun’s rays.” Side effects may include temporary skewed vision.
Seriously. I did see the overhead; I based my comments on it
and I didn’t say he took a straight line to the finish, as I acknowledged: he cut in on Renshaw (although he was going faster) and then drifted slightly right (I said if anything he made room for Cavendish on the left).
Other than the effect of being in front on Renshaw, forcing Cavendish to go around, I didn’t think Petacchi’s moves obstructed Cavendish, and I thought it was pretty straight. I thought Cavendish changed his ‘side’ of Petacchi after his wheel slipped.
I don’t consider myself a biased observer, as I don’t really like either of them very much.
I agree that it doesn’t really matter, though!
Lang secured the jersey
But more importantly.
He rules the Premio della Fuga classification now!
Robert Gesink on the difference between football and cycling: "For us it's a lot harder to get yellow"
Sprinters
bunch of prima donnas…OK so are others but thankfully they only get 4 chances to be in the headlines this year. I much prefer Di Luca or Vino yelling at people. Hold on, what’s that I hear? Oh seems like whaaambulance
You can't spell epic without Giro
I don't like Cav much but Peta made a clear move to cut him off
Definitely showed intent.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
I agree with most here that it wasn't that bad and cheekyness like this makes sprints more interesting
But….. what we’re all saying is that this
" 2.3.036 Riders shall be strictly forbidden to deviate from the lane they selected when launching into the sprint and, in so doing, endangering others."should be taken out of the rulebook. If judges look at the film today and not relegate Peta they’ve pretty much annulled the rule anyways. If the rule stays unaltered and judges use it arbitrarily you get conspiracy theories like Cav’s “they are out to get me” stuff.
Cunning
But here’s the thing; at any point did Peta’s actions endanger Cavendish (or anyone else)?
There’s no arguing that he deviated. But he was far enough ahead to do so without endangering anyone, while still having a definite impact on Cav’s sprint.
I happen to think his actions were intentional, and downright cunning.
The history books will show Petacchi won, and Cav got the Maglia Rosa….
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
I'm a little biased on this
Not being a racer, I tend to think most lateral movement at the front of a 70 man sprint at 65-70 km/h is endangering others. The times that moves like this don’t result in crashes I think are more down to blind luck than anything else.
If Cav hadn't been looking where he was going, it would have been dangerous
and if Haussler had been looking where he was going at the Tour de Suisse there wouldn’t have been a crash.
Now that Cav is dating Peta Todd
Calling Petacchi Peta is confusing (and amusing) me.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
Oh good, I'm not the only one.
Frustration has a way of releasing itself, rarely in a logical manner. -jsallee00
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