Was the Tour Dope free?
by Frinking on Jul 27, 2011 5:46 PM EDT
Email
Print
Disclaimer: I think there will be some allegations toward riders in this thread. If you can't stand it don't read it. You've been warned. It's just a thread to take the doping to one place.. And I for one, don't mind talking doping.
Every Tour goes with incoyable perfomces. We have seen Landis fly away, Kohl taking the KOM, Schumacher who was in every break, the Basque winning a stage, the chicken! All of who perfomaned on the edge and over.
Does thhis doping trend break or continuein the Tour? Where their perfomances who couldn't be made without doping? As we seen the climbing times on some cols you would say there is at least a good indication of a cleaner peloton. With climbing times who where 2 minutes or more down. This also could be the case beacause of the weaknesses of the favorites, headwind or some of the maaad attacks from 95km to go. That will, for now, reamain a question..
But still.. There have been some remarkable perfomances. Not that I will accuse tham of doping. But I will wait and see for 3 months to see if they remain clean.
1. Jelle Vanendert. I know I know.. He was amazing as a kid.. Beating... Konovalovas!! uphill.. There he was again. After his fantastic 3-luik. He surprised me.. What is akward. Is that Vansevenant, 3 times champion Lantern Rouge and old OPL teammate, was arrested with some super doping in his truck. For his own use he said. To remain fit. His bodylanguage didn't only looked that well when he said that.
2. Thomas Voeckler.. Mister Clean. I will never doubt him. Many will only..
3 Norwegian sprinters. This only is out of respect. They beat the crap out of everyone.. Uphill. Bah Norwegian hegemony.
And we had Kolobnev. Only his prestation and his action after he was caught does me think he doesn't used doping.
Were there orher eyes-taking prestations? And the poll.. Because I like polls..
77 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I have to admit
I <3 the clinic
And was quick to vote no here.
Times were slow in the Alps, yeah, but they haven’t been slow everywhere. Michele Ferrari on Fleche Wallonne 2011: http://www.53×12.com/do/show?page=indepth.view&id=116
"Gold medal, silver medal, bronze medal; for me, potato." - Emil Zatopek
Fleche Wallone have something to do with the Tour?
I’m confused now. And is that “one is less than three the clinic”, or is 1<3 some symbol I’m not aware of?
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
I think it means I heart the clinic.
What is the clinic?
by LurkerMcLurkerson on Jul 27, 2011 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess that's Ferrari's clinic?
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
The doping section of the Cyclingnews forum
"On paper, your team is awesome." -- Pigeons on my WVDS team, and life in general.
The Clinic reminds me of
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Jul 28, 2011 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The hope is,
in order to make doping undetectable, it is reduced to levels that are also ineffective.
by papyrus on Jul 27, 2011 6:02 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Bingo !
I think many riders are still doping to some extent but they are very careful and doing so in much more limited amount that it does level the playing field…
by FrenchKheldar on Jul 27, 2011 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
And as the effectiveness goes down, you eventually reach risk-pay off threshold where doping doesn't give you enough benefit to be worth the risk
That’s when I think the number of doping riders will plummet – when the cost to dope without getting caught goes up and the payoffs from doping go down.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
Not to mention the cost of dope.
The chance for prize money goes down as well.
"I love the guys that everyone else in the peloton hate to see hit the front." sminer
Not just the lesser return + cost of doping
but also the stress involved in trying to stay one step ahead of the testers.
It would depend on personality, but anxiety can have an impact on performance.
by LurkerMcLurkerson on Jul 29, 2011 7:09 AM EDT up reply actions
i definitely think what we saw were some massive improvements
probably both in the number of dopers and in the effectiveness of the methods used (well, not improved methods, rather less effective methods, but you knew what i meant). i doubt anybody is dumb enough to add a pint of blood to their system before a big day in the mountains, but i also think new (less effective) methods have been developed in order to beat the bio passport. using papyrus’ logic above, this is great news and a step in the right direction. then again, as far as i know, there is no established/approved/used test for HGH. i would venture to guess its use is pretty widespread in the peloton. do i have any evidence? of course not, just a hunch.
overall, i like what i saw, but the day i don’t think some riders are still using some sorts of banned methods is the day i no longer think at all.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I think this is just about right...
…tho I wonder re HGH. I’ve heard a lot of noise to the effect that it really doesn’t do all that much. Is this propaganda?
Better eyesight
Not hugely relevant in cycling, but the biggest benefit from HGH is better eyesight – big deal in sports that involve hitting a ball (tennis, cricket, baseball, etc).
The other really noticeable one is that is strengthens non-muscle tissue (ligaments, cartilage) marginally, which is of negligible value in itself, but really useful if you’re using steroids, because they only build muscle and ’roiders with strengthened muscles are more likely to damage their non-muscle tissue.
At least, that’s my understanding from what I’ve been able to pick up across a large number of sports where the issue arises.
hGH is actually detectable, but only in blood, not in urine, and the natural variations in how much there is in the body are so great that it’s hard to tell a doper from a naturally high level.
I don't feel I am in position to judge the riders
because I was half in the bag the entire tour.
by Logy on Jul 27, 2011 6:28 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
That’s my man! This is the spirit!
"I love bike races warm up, warm down, cobbles mountains or flats."
perezbike
.
hahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
this is the best comment ever at Podium Cafe!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 27, 2011 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes! + 40 Proof!
"I love bike races warm up, warm down, cobbles mountains or flats."
perezbike
.
by holmovka on Jul 27, 2011 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Drunk, interspersed by hang overs
"On paper, your team is awesome." -- Pigeons on my WVDS team, and life in general.
Ha! Ed!
Did you ever tried to say the word " Interspersed" when you hung over?
"I love bike races warm up, warm down, cobbles mountains or flats."
perezbike
.
by holmovka on Jul 28, 2011 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
or worse, when hangover is interspersed with drinking sessions
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 28, 2011 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, can't argue that.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Definitely in the post-EPO era.
And I don’t know about 98% clean, but that was closer to what I was thinking than just saying “Don’t know”. So that’s how I voted.
It was very refreshing seeing guys cracking near the finishes of the climbs and almost falling off their bikes when crossing the finish line. Totally gone were the watch me fly up this mountain because I don’t even feel any pain vicious attacks on the climbs.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
I am the one of two ( so far ) who voted " I don’t care"
And I am really don’t!
Show, which is Le Tour, was very entertaining, full of drama and suspense!~ And kept me on the edge of my seat till the very end. Thank you very match! It is all I am asking for!
"I love bike races warm up, warm down, cobbles mountains or flats."
perezbike
.
The only reason I care is I can't stand cases dragging on for more then a year...and THAT being the picture that non-fans have of the sport...
But, other then that, I agree with you. I don’t believe they are 100% clean (these are folks who use camelbaks for aero advantage….come on!) – but assuming no further doping positives, I am happy to be ignorant (it’s bliss). This tour was just plain fun to watch.
by JustJoshinYa on Jul 27, 2011 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm the other one :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Ha! I am in the good company.
"I love bike races warm up, warm down, cobbles mountains or flats."
perezbike
.
I thought the same thing!
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I did too.
But now there are 9 of us.
I want to be entertained.
"It's the greatest job in the world until Peyton comes off the field and you think his thumb might be broken and there's three minutes left in the AFC Championship Game and you're down by three to New England and you haven't taken a snap all year. Yeah, it's a great job until that point." - Jim Sorgi.
"If I couldn't play for the Colts, I would probably stop playing football." - Peyton Manning.
by gizzardfanny on Jul 29, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
It wasn't dope free.
Someone rode a motorcycle, and another person drove a car into a cyclist.
by DriftNasty on Jul 28, 2011 2:37 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
was the no needles policy in effect for the tour ?
and if so was it checked/enforeced in anyway ?
I know wiggins was moaning that no-one was enforcing it before the tour
but was wondering what (if any) effect it might have had to “recovery” and the overal racing/result
How do you test for a needle?
Look for tattoos and shout “doper!”? Are dopers using banned substances and methods going to stop using needles because needles are now banned? They didn’t stop using banned substances and methods when they were banned. The only riders this was going to effect were the non-dopers using needles for legal substances. Sure, they’ll stop, and put themselves even further behind the dopers. Big needles wig me out (no pun) so I’m not against the ban but I don’t think it’ll accomplish much.
"Gold medal, silver medal, bronze medal; for me, potato." - Emil Zatopek
Well I guess it would stop blood doping
I’m no doctor but I’m guessing thats diffecult to do without involving a needle.
But I am with you, I don’t understand how they police it and what its trying to achieve. Seem’s like a half heart effort to be seen to be doing something rather than actually doing something…..
It baffles me
how it supposedly stops blood doping when blood doping is already banned. Half hearted and half headed.
"Gold medal, silver medal, bronze medal; for me, potato." - Emil Zatopek
With a no needles policy
the phlebotomy sight could no longer be explained away by saying that it was caused by a B12 injection.
Phlebotomy- cool word.
Thanks for educating me Logy.
by LurkerMcLurkerson on Jul 29, 2011 7:13 AM EDT up reply actions
FRIIIINKSTER! Mate! Long time no see - how are you, my friend?
(Just here for the Frinkster. Y’all know that I don’t really ‘talk doping’. Or is non-doping talk banned in the doping thread?)
Frinking, what a dope
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jul 28, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Dope free? No
Cleanest in a long long time?
Certainly.
Chuck Norris isn't fit to wear Jens! cleats.
Agreed
I didn’t vote because I can’t honestly say that I thought it was 98% clean, that’s just too high. But I do think that it was cleaner than it’s been for a while. Of course it could be that they’re doping at such low levels it’s undetectable. Don’t know if that’s an advance or not.
"These are my principles and if you don't like them....well I have others." Groucho Marx
The big one that is left
Is homologous doping. If they can get a plasticizer test approved, or a blood age test, or a total blood volume test I think we would see the end of doping. . .until the next thing came along.
There is just too much incentive to cheat.
i operate under an entirely different premise.
i assume they all dope. by no means am i insulting clean riders or the movement to clean cycling. i believe doping is inherent in the system for every sporting discipline and always will be. there will be ebbs and flows in usage and techniques but we will never know what % is clean. history has shown that the top dopers are 5+ years ahead of any testing technique or even what product(s) is enhancing performance.
That's why the bio-passport was created
To give anti-doping a tool besides product-specific tests.
Riders can still get around bio-passport I’m sure. But still, it’s something.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
I don't care
it was awesome to watch, I watch sports for awesomeness. So I am happy not knowing more for now
(and yes I do care if cycling is cleaner but right now I’m just not worrying bout it)
I think we should retire the term "dope free"
No sport will ever be dope free.
But I do believe this Tour is cleaner. Could be less riders doping, could be doped riders doping less to avoid detection.
Regardless, all the metrics one would use as a proxy for the amount of doping point in one direction, a cleaner peloton.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
For me
It was certainly a more leveled field. I was glad to see that AC or AS couldn’t just ride away from everyone. Other factors may have been in effect, but the one thing that kept getting my attention is how many Europcar guys were there at the end when even the big teams had no helpers…
My .02
If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to have time to do it again?
It did seem a lot less predictable as to who would be there at the end of mountain stages...
That might be a sign of progress, or it might not. Concerning Europcar, Kern’s performance in the Dauphine had already rung some alarm bells for me, so I was a little concerned by their super-strong performance in the Tour. However FDJ got a surprisingly good ride from Jeannesson, and AG2R from Peraud, and Cofidis from Taaramae, and Saur from Coppel, so I guess it’s fair to say the French teams all looked a bit better.
Start fast, finish fast, and hope you're fast enough-- Cadel Evans
I'll have to re-watch some of the stages
Europcar definitely performed better than one would expect, but I don’t seem to remember the team performing suspiciously well. Most of the time Europcar was on the front was either generic “defend the jersey” duties or setting the pace when the other contenders were busy looking at each other.
Frankly, I thought Europcar was taking responsibility on the climbs so as to SLOW down the group for Voeckler’s benefit.
I think the other thing that made Europcar stick out is that most of the big teams had poor team support or not interest in setting the pace in the mountains this year. Saxo was MIA, BMC brought rouleurs and a lot of LT’s “super”-domestiques sucked. Basso barely had Szmyd in the mountains. RadioShack had no raison d’etre to work. HTC burned up Velits, Martin and Tejay. The Garmen were following wheels.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
Rabobank switched to breakaways after Gesink collapsed too
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
I think that's an excellent analysis of Europcar, actually.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Yeah, it did seem that there was kind of a vacuum after the top stars.
So many of the top-ten candidates were knocked out or hampered by injury—Gesink, Vino, JVDB, Wiggins, Levi, Horner, Kloden, Jani. Maybe if they had been there to up the pressure, Europcar would not have been able to hold on so well. I agree that they were setting the pace to keep it mellow… it’s just that I was surprised to see them getting away with it.
I don’t want to rain on Europcar’s parade… but the line between “better than expected” and “suspiciously well” is a hard one to locate precisely.
Start fast, finish fast, and hope you're fast enough-- Cadel Evans
I was going to avoid this thread...
but what I’ve noticed over the last few years is a reduction in me thinking… or saying… “That’s f-ing impossible”
I said that at least three time EVERY year….. especially during the Tour from about 1998 – 2008???? Ten years sounds fair.
Now….. not only do I not scream it at the TV (like when a sprinter would pace set and drop a climber in the mountains….)
but I almost don’t even think it.
Something is beginning to be forgotten….. I hope it’s not me forgetting reality.
laughing with you a little ruefully on this one . . .
but this thread has got me thinking about a potentially positive unintended consequence of bio-passport etc:
if the “guarantees” of a “good” (i.e. $80,000+/yr) doping program no longer produce the results that would justify the rider’s expense, then the decision to drop the dope becomes as much economic as moral . . .
money talks
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I'm also of the opinion that it wasn't dope-free and probably never will be but was likely the cleanest in years...
The main evidence I see is that the French and Norweigens did suprisingly well – two nations with some of the best anti-doping attitudes in recent years. Hushovds climbing performances may have suprised some but it is well known he is one of the most physically gifted athletes in the world with an enormous VO2max and a cleaner peleton is bringing out the better athletes these days. That said I do think a lot of the riders are just micro-dosing on banned substances which means that even if you get caught you can give a good crack on blaming it on contamination (i.e. conti). There’s also a rumour of an undetectable form of EPO being made in China at the moment so we could see a few positives once they find a test like they did for CERA. And finally there’s good old fashioned blood doping which, done properly, should be undetectable lest you get caught with your hand in the fridge! Hopefully the plastercisers test will become more widely used to combat this.
I’m not saying they’re guilty but riders who rang alarm bells of suspicion for me included vanendert, the schelcks, evans, iglinsky and hoogerland.
Still reckon it was much cleaner than the swimming world championships I was watching on TV today though!!
Not to mention De Gendt
Oops, now I did mention him.
"On paper, your team is awesome." -- Pigeons on my WVDS team, and life in general.
It was the cleanest Tour in recent memory, maybe one of the cleanest ever
But does that = “clean?” No. Flat out, no.
The GC narrative of the 2011 TDF is all about AC not being in top form
because of doping and the maybe eventually impending sanctions.
It takes away something from Evans’ victory, at least for me. AC is a faster rider than Evans, and would have prepared for the TDF exclusively, skipping the Giro, but no.
I believe more in rest for preparation than reaching peaking fitness once a year – tapering/peaking is part of sport but also has been used to cover up a lot of doping by top guys in cycling. AC was still tired from the Giro – yes, that is understandable. But where was Andy all year and last year, too? Without his 2 Liege podiums, both somewhat associated with strategy (Riding for Frank in 2010, riding for Phil(!) in 2011), Andy no existe outside the TDF? Only Liege? No other course suits Andy at all?
The dark cloud over the sport is the same for me.
ALL of the strongest riders are suspects, and the most strong are the most suspect. New riders, improved riders, all suspects. Sucks.
On the other hand, the ‘tainted meat’ excuse has gotten better over time. Hard to do in a sport where any excuse/explanation is seen as BS, with everyone having heard too many excuses already…
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Celebrate the Giro d'Italia at Podium Cafe!
Check our Giro Section for race updates, on-the-scene reports, and other hijinx.
Featured Stories
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
