Tour de France: Chris Horner Delirous (in a Bad Way) at Finish
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 8, 2011 2:35 PM EDT
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This is pretty bizarre stuff. Horner talks to a mic after crossing the line and doesn't seem to know where he is. DNS tomorrow is a pretty safe bet. What an awful day today...
Update: Juliet Macur of the New York Times reports over on the Twitter that Horner suffered a broken nose and a concussion. He remains uncertain if he will start tomorrow.
Update: And voilà, the press release from Team RadioShack. They will make a decision about whether Horner will continue the race tomorrow.
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that is absolutely frightening
Go back home Chris and Boonen and heal your heads
I picked Riccardo Ricco for my 2011 VDS team, and submitted said team well before the submission deadline. I fully understand the error of my ways, and plead with the VDS Gods to allow me to resubmit my team.
man, just watched to the end where they are loading him up to a stretcher and he doesn't even understand that he finished
Hope you’re ok Chris.
I picked Riccardo Ricco for my 2011 VDS team, and submitted said team well before the submission deadline. I fully understand the error of my ways, and plead with the VDS Gods to allow me to resubmit my team.
RSH will be sending us video
so we’ll have it ourselves soon.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 8, 2011 2:39 PM EDT reply actions
um...time for people to be pulled from races when they don't know WTF is going on.
This is brain damage type of stuff. “How many fingers?” “What is your name?”
If the answers are unknowns…then they shouldn’t race.
plus a zillion
Admire the toughness—no surprise coming from Horner—but somebody needs to step in and say No Mas in that situation. Team officials, race officials, teammates, I don’t know, but this is serious and scary shit. He should not have been allowed to go on after that crash.
My second place behind Contador is worth a lot--Michele Scarponi
Another concussion at the Tour?
Seem to be unusual amount of them so far.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
Time to make helmets mandatory for all Tour riders!
"On paper, your team is awesome." -- Pigeons on my WVDS team, and life in general.
Bikes should be like row-boats, rider facing backwards
that way they would land on their asses instead.
Yes! Halfway there:
"On paper, your team is awesome." -- Pigeons on my WVDS team, and life in general.
wow
that looks bad. best of luck chris. get better.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
yikes
didn’t see any of the stage yet (ie. didn’t see the crash or how Horner looked immediately afterwards if that was shown) – but I’m always somewhat annoyed by the attitude of cycling towards head injuries. Confusion/memory loss is a definite symptom of concussion, and the generally accepted guidelines for concussion treatment in a sports-setting is that the athlete should not be allowed back into the competition for the remainder of the day (minimum). All too often there are reports of riders being woozy or confused and yet finishing the stage – if they crashed and hit their head again, they’re at high risk for a much more severe head injury or death. :-(
(issue of head injuries is particularly close to Canadian hockey fans hearts at the moment with one of the game’s stars being out from January onward after apparently being misdiagnosed and getting hit again or the initial injury being deliberately downplayed or something…)
yeah
I wonder about this too – I get the mentality in cycling about hard men finishing no matter what, and the need in a stage race to try to get the finish and sort out injuries later. But, head injuries! People, that’s bad! The dudes shouldn’t be on the bike.
This is what I thought as well
As much as I think hockey still has a long way to go with head injuries, I can’t begin to understand why they let Horner (and Boonen, for that matter) ride with such symptoms. As you said, we have seen too much the effects of concussions with the long term consequences. The riders are essential to the sport; I know most of them have the relfex to get back on the bike and keep going, but in such situations, they should be stopped immediatly.
Ok. My first thought was to contrast bruyneel's
Attitude with Horner to the QS handling of boonen, BUT
WTF?
Guy doesn’t know where he is and you put him back on a bike?
WRONG.
by R Mc on Jul 8, 2011 2:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
totally agree - I kept hearing him say, "Scary stuff" and was screaming at the screen...
I think it’s reckless to put him back on the bike.
I think it happens more often than we think
Those stressed situations where people are just hurting all over and shook up by a crash. I don’t think they often stop to consider whether their head is 100% in it. I think often the big focus is on the physical. Look at the Boonen crashsite , all focus is on his shoulderpain, don’t think anyone got until later that the head was the problem.
Meaning those stressed situations when a guy is roadside after a crash
and they need to get back on the bike fast so as not get left behind the race.
yeah
that combined with the nature of stage races makes it less likely that the necessary precautions will be taken.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
+ it's the Tour
They’re SOOOOOOO invested in continuing, in so many ways.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 8, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
That seems to be what Horner is perplexed by
He seems confused that he was able to finish but is being taken to the hospital
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
I don't think it was Bruyneel, I think it was the doctor. He's the only one who can okay Horner getting back on the bike.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Definitely a concussion
Not necessarily a bad one. I’ve had a concussion like that, where you lose all short-term memory for a while. I drove my friends nuts, because, much like Horner, I was constantly asking what happened.
No such injury as a "good" concussion.
At least they’re getting him examined and treated, but that shoulda happened ASAP
by R Mc on Jul 8, 2011 2:57 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Terrifying
Seeing him upright on the bike but totally blinkered disturbs me at least as much as seeing Jani bloodied on the ground. Geeze . . .
What does it take for a team to pull a rider out of a race?
I mean the guy does not know where he is…Who he is or anything!!! What else do you need to realize he is not ok to keep racing? Like someone else said…. What would it happen if he re-injure the brain in this same stage? We could be talking about much worst now. Thanks God nothing happened … Get well soon Chris..!
I'm kind of torn about the video.
It’s good for everyone to see what can happen, to learn something, but is it right to be showing this video of Horner so soon after the accident, before he can fully heal and understand what is being put out there.
Super dope. Is that like EPO on steroids?
ah
he’ll laugh about it in a month or so. We’re not talking about serious damage, just something that he needs to sleep off for a few days.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 8, 2011 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Horner can laugh it off, but is it Bicycling magazines decision?
Do his kids/family see this before they can talk to him? Showing Weylandt laying in the road before anyone really knew what the situation was could be dismissed as a reporter/cameraman caught up in the moment doing his job. This they could think about before it was posted. I hope it was handled with Horner’s interests in mind.
Super dope. Is that like EPO on steroids?
This isn't the same ballpark as the Weylandt video and it's not the same situation
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
???? I didn't think I was calling this the same situation. In fact I was pointing out how they were different.
Based upon how there was time to make an editorial decision in Horner’s case.
Super dope. Is that like EPO on steroids?
Actually I think it's good...
Because it highlights something really important. Shocking stuff, but sometimes it takes something shocking to make an impression.
And BTW I’m (apparently) one of the few people who don’t think JB is a total fuckwit, but wow, I think he blew it bigtime by letting Horner continue.
My second place behind Contador is worth a lot--Michele Scarponi
I can see the positive in it too.
I would prefer to see it put together in a single piece a week or two from now with Horner participating and telling everyone that yea, concussions are a very serious thing. As a news scoop for shock value not so much.
Super dope. Is that like EPO on steroids?
FD, I understand and share some of your uneasiness.
However, in terms of the positive aspects, many more people would probably see it today than in a week or two in a canned story. There appears to be so much pressure on the riders to continue that it seems really mandatory that the true risks be broadcast.
I was stunned to see JB talking about Horner’s level of confusion after the crash and during the race. My God, what a bad call to let that man go on.
I can see where people are coming from and agree that JB made a bad call
but in all honesty I would probably have done the exact same thing even when knowing what I do now. How can one easily give the order to prevent a rider from doing what the rider basically has been living and breathing for all year to to reach? I think the call becomes even harder in Horner’s case because his age dictates that this is one of his definitive last chances of shoving what he is made of.
Horner could become a big icon in many American homes but now he’s just the guy who was talked up but crashed. I’m not going to judge JB, I’ll let Homer do that(did you notice that I switched ‘rn’ with an ‘m’?).
The reax comments show bruyneel
To be sort of aware of the seriousness of tbi, BUT not aware enuf to have stopped Horner on the road.
My trainer buddy is adamant that Horner should not have been allowed to continue: “that’s not tough, that’s stupid.”
by R Mc on Jul 8, 2011 5:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
ja
in hindsight, that’s a clear call.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 8, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It NEEDS to be a clear call on the road.
Just like it’s becoming a clear call on football sidelines and hockey benches.
Those Doctors were negligent.
also:
in the case of wiggins, he was like, no, and it was clear they were like, dude, get on the bike, and he’s like, no way man, i can’t ride. so, the pressure to ride is there, and someone has to stop and say, wait, there’s more important stuff here than the bike race. that’s the race doc’s job. a good sports director could make that call, too, but i understand that in the heat of the moment someone on the team with so much invested might not do it.
oddly . . . VN quotes the Medical Report thusly:
“Chris Horner (RadioShack), trauma to brain, loss of consciousness, followed during the remainder of race, transported to local hospital for observation; "
Not sure how to parse that one—although it is clear that it probably would have required physical restraint to stop him from riding . . .
So they followed him
Great. If I followed my kids at a busy intersection, that wouldn’t be good parenting.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 9, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm surprised at this.
VS. clearly showed Horner at the Medical car after the crash. Do they not have anyone that could determine how addled he was? He should have been pulled.
"Just power of the beer, man" - tsgirl
That was part of my point above
often the riders are quite confused and shocked after bad crashes, concussion or not. I wonder if they always have/take the time to make an informed decision?
It's a tough evaluation on the road, what with the urgency and adrenaline going 100mph
But it would be nice if the team took the decision to start tomorrow out of his hands and just said sorry, but no.
"Everybody relax, I'm here."
I think it hard to tell the difference adrenaline pumping and a concussion in the first minute or two
When my friend broke his collarbone a few weeks ago, he sounded loony for a few minutes. His head was fine though.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
The interesting part to me is that riding is so engrained that they can do it half conscious
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
That's the most incredible and scariest part. Even loopy they can ride farther and faster than we can.
Autopilot is an amazing thing.
"Everybody relax, I'm here."
Tombo said one of the reasons he quit
was because he was becoming a danger to the rest of the peloton
I'm glad he was at least able to see it and make his own call. Someone should have done the same for Horner.
"Everybody relax, I'm here."
With my day job hat on
(NH Racing – where jockeys ride horses over fences at similar speeds to men ride bikes, and fall off 1/7 – 1/10 rides on average any given year)
The moment a jockey is diagnosed as concussed it is an immediate 7 day holiday, an immediate 21 day holiday on occasion, and either way you must pass an independent doctor to ride in a race again.
Jockeys, like cyclists, fall all the time, get back up right as rain and ride in the next race.
But when they hit their head to the point of concussion – the rules of the sport take over for their own good, and everyone else’s.
Not totally sure this should be a rider or team decision. If after half an hour or so you still have symptoms of concussion – get off your bike. If you manage to make the end of the stage and have symptoms of concussion – then it should be academic.
Ja, having a hard time seeing how anyone who saw Horner post stage today
would even put out the statement the team has, that they will assess his condition tomorrow to decide. It should be blatantly clear one would think?
probably just timing
They’ll want to wait for Horner to be clear-headed enough to talk it over with him, before someone tells him it’s on the website.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 8, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Just good process
Doctor’s evaluation should be a formality, but still, it’s not up to the team PR person (or even DS) to declare him out right now.
"On paper, your team is awesome." -- Pigeons on my WVDS team, and life in general.
This is a great perspective.
Thank you for sharing it. It does make some sense to take the decision out of the hands of the rider (for sure) and even the team at some point.
+1
I didn’t see today’s stage, but when I saw Janès crash the other day, I was terrified for a moment that they would let him back on the bike.
It needs to be a neutral, medically certified decision.
"Long Live Cols" - ant1
The thing that bothers me is Horner was in the ditch for like 5 minutes. It's not like he was down and then back riding quickly.
I agree with above statements saying it’s usually a rush decision to get them back in the race and all and avoid losing all sorts of time, but he was sitting on the side of the road a long enough time that a medical decision could be made. As Will said, it should be neutral, medically certified … done.
I guess the other side of the coin ….
Impossible for ever little crash to get Dr. examined.
"Long Live Cols" - ant1
that was a massive crash with alot of riders needing medical attention
Maybe a doctor never made it to him and he got on his bike and just left. Watching live, all we really saw is a screen graphic of his name and a brief image of an RS rider. The director had Wiggo on camera most of the time, so I hate to call out any doctors, Brunyeel or anyone else about letting him to continue to ride. None of us really know exactly what happened.
I picked Riccardo Ricco for my 2011 VDS team, and submitted said team well before the submission deadline. I fully understand the error of my ways, and plead with the VDS Gods to allow me to resubmit my team.
None of us really know exactly what happened.
Including Horner…
(but I agree with you…not sure he actually did get assessed on the road)
by JustJoshinYa on Jul 8, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
agree with Will completely about a neutral decision.
I wonder if this is tangentially related to the inability to clearly settle doping cases. as if the sport sometimes is not capable of exercising adult supervision or afraid to allow anyone that kind of authority.
We were at the start today and Horner was had his usual ear to ear grin. Just catching highlights now after dinner and just horrified. What an awful day for everyone.
by bdr on Jul 8, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
This
could be an event which causes changes in the UCI rules and/or procedures.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 8, 2011 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Similar in icehockey
At least in Sweden, where they have to go through 6 or 7 steps, with 24 hours between each step, before playing a match again. The first step is total brain rest until the player feels recovered, and the next step is some very easy aerobic training.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Jul 8, 2011 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Jens! factor for weather
Now we have the Horner factor for riding injured.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Slept in today and missed the stage
Unexpected carnage, eh?
watches video
Jesus, kid gloves. Looks like he lost 13 minutes today, so his Tour’s over from a competitive perspective. Don’t push it.
You probably would have said the stage was flat and Cav was the favourite
which probably would have provoked Polemica with capital P
I think we will see some fallout from this
That was scary addled. You gotta keep him off the bike.
I was so hoping for a great ride – his climbing was amazing in the TOC
Maybe good he finished more than 12 minutes down...
If he were still close to the leaders, Chris might want to play the hero and continuing racing. Given that he’s clearly out of contention, the decision at least should be easier to make, not much to lose at this point.
Btw, what’s with RS? At least 6 of their riders have been in crashes so far, while those ultra-smooth bike handling Schlecks have been in zero.
Radio shack guys have been on their own
Trying to hold position.
The schleck’s have dedicated guys riding with them.
A definite drawback to the 4 musketeers strategy.
by R Mc on Jul 8, 2011 5:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, too many cooks in the kitchen
They say they’re all for Kloden now (well, duh) so it should get simpler
something i'd like to point out
there’s a lot of talk around the interwebs about whether or not Horner should have been allowed to get back on his bike and finish the stage. i think we all agree it would have been better for his health not to. and i’m pretty sure none of us are very clear on how everything actually went down (where was JB, the race doctor, teammates…and what did they know). there’s much confusion during a stage, especially after a big crash. hindsight is 20/20.
on the other hand, the Boonen situation is a much clearer case. the guy exhibited symptoms of a serious concussion in between stages and was allowed to ride. that to me (given what i know about both situation) is much more egregious than the Horner situation, and should maybe be at the receiving end of a lot of the frustrations we fans have. both situations are part of the same problem, but one is clearly a bad move that could and should have been prevented, while the other is a little more ambiguous right now.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
and i'm not saying that JB or the doctors should be blameless
the opposite could be just as likely, i just don’t know as of now.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Agree
But boy is it fun to jump down on JB and RS when the opportunity presents itself. I find some of this reaction to be a bit overly cautious. It’s always easy to say, “Yea, but what if this had happened as a result?”
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Hadn't heard anything about Boonen except that he quit the race
Between stages? Did he not where he was between stages?
And sensitivity to light/sound, and some queasiness
but as far as I understand no vomiting or other riders saying he was a danger, like it was reported by Laura Weislo at CN, her head injury piece.
"On paper, your team is awesome." -- Pigeons on my WVDS team, and life in general.
Oh no, Weislo made a mistake?
How shocking. It’s cause these stupid foreigners refuse to talk English for her convenience, I’m sure.
Agree ant1...
For me, seeing the Horner video immediately made me think of Boonen. Neither should have been riding…makes me wonder who else is suffering through headaches and sensitivity to light in the peloton…
by JustJoshinYa on Jul 8, 2011 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
You're right to remind us that we don't know the specifics.
The Bicycling Mag clip made it seem as if JB knew about Horner’s condition when he got back on the bike but, of course, we don’t know that. He could have then been speaking based on the info he’d gotten after the race had finished.
Yes, the Boonen case was absolutely clear. I’m still stunned they let him ride the next day and I’m glad he climbed off today.
I do hope this leads to some serious thinking about the in-race treatment of head injuries.
agreed, some guidelines need to be put in place
even if the symptoms are not immediately apparent, riders need to be checked on at some sort of set intervals after a crash. the race doctor should be required to check on every rider who’s had a crash involving head trauma of any kind, even if it takes them a little while to catch up to the rider (rider can be free to chase the peloton before the doc gets there). the DSs need to use their radios to communicate with the rider. maybe ask him some standard questions to evaluate his mental state every ten minutes. in Horner’s case, something could have been done much earlier. in Boonen’s case, i can’t believe he had to take himself out. where was everyone? why did it have to come down to the brain damaged guy making the right decision? i hope something gets worked out soon.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
"why did it have to come down to the brain damaged guy making the right decision?"
Great question! That’s the thing about head injuries, it’s really not the patient who should be making the decision. And from the account I read, it sounded like management (Peeters specifically) would have liked Boonen to continue, and had to be persuaded to let him stop.
My second place behind Contador is worth a lot--Michele Scarponi
heres another video.
I made a fanshot, but took it down to post here. This one (found over at steephill.tv) is right after he finished while still on the bike. Scary, scary stuff. I agree, it shouldn’t even be a question of starting tomorrow, when you are like this, you are pulled right away.
with link...
http://www.steephill.tv/players/720/bicycling/?title=Confused+Chris+Horner+after+a+hard+crash+on+stage+7,+Johan+Bruyneel+updates&dashboard=tour-de-france&id=Chris-Horner-Post-Stage-7-Crash&yr=2011
not sure why I couldn’t get the link thingy to work…
isn't that
the same one I linked to in my first sentence? Not what I ended up posting, since NBC later sent us theirs.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 8, 2011 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, and yours works too
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Good to know:
From CN:
Cycling has only begun to treat head injuries as seriously as they need to, and Steffen hopes that more teams will adopt some method for evaluating riders. He once headed up the American Association of Cycling Team Doctors, but the task became too time consuming. Luckily, another group has created the Medicine of Cycling Conference, which will take place in August in Colorado. There will be a panel discussion on concussions at the event.
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 8, 2011 8:08 PM EDT reply actions
The 8 p.m. show leans towards his retirement from the Tour.
From what I gather Robbie Ventura says JB is thinking his tour is over.
Perhaps they were hasty.
There is a small chance of him continuing. He and Levi can still win it all!
This is a joke, right?
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
The small chance of continuing no,
Levi or Horner winning yes…only because Phil and Paul talk about them winning it during the stages. I do want Horner to continue on if he is healthy enough to do so.
Oops, seahorsed. Given yesterday's crash, I hope Horner doesn't continue,
but it’s always awful to see someone crash out of a race. Horner’s case is particularly poignant given his age.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I enjoyed watching him ride the Tour last year.
Especially how he rode himself into 10th with what seemed like very little support in the mountains. It would be a sad end to this Tour for him.
I hope to see a healthy Chris Horner and Jens Voigt battling it out in the 2021 Tour de France
Because you know they’ll both still be around XD
If O'Grady isn't there, they don't have a team. I'd suggest McEwen too.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Maybe
Ekimov can come back and set tempo
If cobble delusions are wrong, who wants to be right? -JFS PGH
by Chris Fontecchio on Jul 9, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
senior tour
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Horner's tour is done
Just posted on his Twitter a few minutes ago: https://twitter.com/#!/hornerakg/status/89606143684526080
@JohanBruyneel RT: Update on @hornerakg: doing much better, 2nd head scan ok. Broken nose & big haematoma on right calf. No start.
Speedy recovery, Chris!!
Well said!
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Another reason to argue for standing down a concussed rider
Getting mildly concussed and feeling able to ride the rest of the stage/next day is all well and good. Most mild concussions are just that – mild.
But these kind of rules exist in other sports as they also prevent someone getting a follow up bang on the head within a short space of time – thus risking potential cumulative injury/effects.
In cycling, like other sports, this risk is quite real – it should be eliminated.
Interesting that Steffen has compiled a protocol for use in DS cars
That is one possible way of improving the situation (careful to avoid: solving). From a commercial standpoint by Lazer helmets rep: http://helmeteering.tumblr.com/post/7411465530/cyclist-head-injuries-and-helmet-standards
Facts aren’t completely sound in the CN article, from what I know. Boonen did not vomit but did say that he was queasy and over-sensitive to light and sound, and it wasn’t other riders that thought he was a danger but he himself did.
"On paper, your team is awesome." -- Pigeons on my WVDS team, and life in general.
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