Amber Neben Replaces Kristin Armstrong in World Championship Time Trial
by Jen See on Sep 16, 2011 2:18 PM EDT
in Women's Cycling
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In a surprising piece of news, Kristin Armstrong of PB & Co. will not ride the World Championship time trial in Copenhagen. Armstrong told the Associated Press that she is on her way back to the United States after Amber Neben of HTC-Highroad appealed Armstrong's selection. Armstrong is the reigning Olympic champion in the time trial, but Amber Neben placed second in the this year's U.S. National Championship.
"I landed in Denmark only to find out that I had been replaced. Three hours later in the airport, I am on my way home," she said. Armstrong's decision to travel home means she will not compete in the road race.
The United States receives two slots for the time trial at Worlds, and the selection process uses the national championships and recent international results to determine the team. Thanks to her victory at the National Championship, Evelyn Stevens of HTC-Highroad received the first spot. The USA Cycling selection criteria automatically grant the national champion and any rider finishing in the top three at the previous year's World Championship a start at the time trial. In 2010, Neben placed fourth at Worlds, while Armstrong took the season off to have a baby.
Neither Armstrong nor Neben met the criteria for automatic selection, which opened the way for the United States team coaches to decide. As a former gold medalist, Armstrong received the bid. But the rules dictate: "Nomination will be based on individual time trial results from time trials held in international stage races, international time trial events, and National Championships time trial results." Neben placed second at the U.S. National Championships and has several international time trial results to her credit this season, including a second place at the recent Chrono Champenois-Trophée Européen in France.
In 2008, Neben won the World Championship time trial and has placed consistently well in the discipline throughout her career. Armstrong has generally out-ridden Neben when they have raced head-to-head, but the selection rules grant priority to riders with demonstrated recent international results. In contrast to Neben, Armstrong did not travel to Europe this season. The PB & Co. rider also had a disappointing ride at Nationals after a crash hobbled her preparation.
Neben's successful appeal sets up an intriguing plot twist on the road to the London Olympic Games. Armstrong returned to racing this season with the ambition of winning another Olympic medal. That ambition just become more challenging, as she will need to ride well next season to meet the Olympic selection criteria. In 2004, a similar coach's selection appeal excluded her from the Athens Olympics. Armstrong will also miss a key opportunity to test herself against the top riders who will be her rivals for Gold in London.
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Hmmm
I can sympathize with the difficult choice, but the part where they signal to women that they shouldn’t have babies is uncool on so many levels.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 16, 2011 2:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Oh geez, I didn't even think of that aspect/message!
I can understand the “priority given to recent international results” angle.
by Spot of Bother on Sep 16, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure
I would guess their intentions weren’t as awful as the outcome. But the timing is harder to excuse. Wait til Armstrong is IN COPENHAGEN??
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 16, 2011 2:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How could that be the message?
They selected Armstrong before Neben called them on not using the criteria they were supposed to. Armstrong could have targeted an international race just to cover herself. She has had the whole season but chose to stay in America. Sucks that the coaches couldn’t get their act together and follow the rules.
There are all these rumors, so there has to be something to it." - Jakob Fulgsang
And it has to suck to be Neben, but she has worked hard to put herself into the Worlds too.
There are all these rumors, so there has to be something to it." - Jakob Fulgsang
The fact that she has a small baby
is probably the reason she didn’t travel to Europe. Personally, I think this is very dodgy indeed.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Because in Europe, you know, they eat babies.
Excuse me, what????
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Because travelling internationally with a little baby is bloody difficult.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Hell, travelling anywhere with a little baby isn't very easy.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
My parents took me to europe when I was an infant, and my brother too.
That was 40-some years ago, and I seriously doubt it was easier back then. Plenty of people do it. We’re not talking about a research trip down the amazon.
You can find better support and child care in europe than the US, most places. Not to mention lower child mortality. (OK, back off my soapbox.) But honestly, it’s no harder to fly from NY to belgium than it is from NY to the sites of various US races. Maybe three hours more in the air. And trains are way easier and more flexible than planes.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Perhaps being a professional bike rider
is closer to a research trip down the Amazon than a normal international travel.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 16, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
babies make great piranha bait.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
piranha feeding time at the zoo
one of the biggest letdowns of my life
I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.
mehranhas?
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
she's not taking the kid on the bike.
Granted, a lot of women stay home for 6 months, a year, or more with a new baby in much of western europe. So there’s far less infant daycare than toddler daycare. But it’s still not hard to find. Besides, it’s not like she’d have had to go for the whole season to do a few of the big races. Take a friend or family member along, share the hotel room.
It’s not free, it’s not cheap, and it’s not convenient. But it’s not out of line with other things that happen to people that make riding big races more of a challenge.
On the other hand, if you’re explicitly and intentionally taking a second year away from the big time because you want to do motherhood in a certain way, more than you want to do riding in a certain way, then own that decision. People take time off jobs to care for an elderly parent, recommit to a marriage, or do the things on their bucket list while they’re young enough. I agree that in a just world, they should not be fired for doing “life stuff.” But they should also not expect to get the employee of the year award, that year.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
(was it necessary to reply in quite that way?)
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Would a winkie have helped?
I figured it was pretty obvious I didn’t mean that seriously.
The snark was not aimed uniquely at your statement. I’s aimed at the many people in the US who figure that foreign travel is somehow intrinsically dangerous and difficult and not family friendly, as if there were somehow the US at the pinnacle of safety and child-friendliness (which, statistically and experientially, it isn’t) and the rest of the world somehow lacking. If you travel the world, you see people traveling both short and long distances with babies everywhere. There’s no greater commonality, for all humanity, than dealing with a baby.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Good points
I can’t make any assumptions here as to why Armstrong stayed home (exhausting? nice time to be near extended family? who knows). But I agree that babies travel well and Europe is as good a place as any. Hell, the only thing stopping me from taking ours is that if I’m going to squander the cash and vacation time, I don’t want them telling me years from now that they don’t remember going.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 16, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Babies, travel, and the Armstrong/Neben Worlds debacle.
I want to make a few observations and so I will use your post as a springboard.
- Traveling with a baby is waaaaay different than traveling on work with a baby. ( I tried that and I quickly learned my lesson.) Anyone who doesn’t understand that isn’t thinking it all out. I am sure there have been a few who have tried it but I haven’t ever heard of a pro rider doing it. Euro women would be very close to home and their support system, whereas most other women, North and South Americans, Aussies, etc, would be very far away doing races in Europe. I am not sure any of the women make enough to allow for bringing their families over for an extended period of time. Thus Kristin chose to race domestically so she could be relatively close to her child.
- This was Kristin Armstrong’s choice to stay near home, not Amber Neben’s or anyone else’s. If an American male decided he wished to race only domestically to stay near his family, nobody would think this gave him a free pass on properly qualifying for the Worlds.
- The coaches should have observed the guidelins more closely. This situation should never have occurred. Even if they did make an initial choice of Kristin Armstrong, they should have quickly decided on the appeal and would have saved a lot of grief for all around.
Ice
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
Agree with most of this except
“If an American male decided he wished to race only domestically to stay near his family, nobody would think this gave him a free pass on properly qualifying for the Worlds.”
Kind of an unfair comparision. Male cyclists are generally paid enough to up sticks and install their entie families in Girona or wherever. They can have kids without having to take much (if any time off) and have a much longer period of their lives in which they can realistically have children. None of this applies to women cyclists.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Not to mention, though I have no idea if she's doing the La Leche thing,
I’m darn sure that the male riders are not nursing an infant.
That said, I was under the impression that the women’s tour and major races are flexible enough that one can do a subset of races. Maybe someone who’s more of a points head can figure out where and if she could have picked up quite a few points over the course of, say, 3 weeks in europe. Assuming, of course, that she was in shape.
And I want to add that it’s totally gross when women get fired (or not hired) for having kids (and yes, that’s still legal in a lot of US states). Especially on the assumption that they won’t or can’t use their time and brains well enough to handle a desk and computer job. But a competition slot for a top athlete isn’t “a job.” It’s not like a team dumping her for procreating, when they could put her on the inactive list.
I don’t see it as cycling’s job to make up for every other fact or choice in her life that’s making her not want to race in Europe, with or without the baby, as a new mom. I mean, there are some husbands who could and would head off to Europe in support, some sisters, some moms, some brothers, some dads, some BFF’s. Maybe the kid has other needs, or is a screamer, or there’s post partum depression, who knows. There are a lot of reasons for her to make choices, and for people not to second guess those choices.
But the choices are made within the framework of the published regulations. Unless she was promised a freebie spot, in writing, by people legally authorized to make that offer (and so far as I know, such people don’t exist) she ought to own her choices.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Agreed
Also the “free pass” concept doesn’t really apply here. I don’t think Kristin Armstrong expected a free pass, just consideration. I do think in women’s racing they should consider things like this. Kristin Armstrong wasn’t just sitting around eating bon bons waiting for the Worlds to roll around. She raced domestically. I have no background to judge the quantity or quality of her racing activity, but she did race. Maybe like Laurent Fignon got some bad advice about using aero equip from his coach Cyrille Guimard in the 1989 TdF, Kristin Armstrong’s coach Jim Miller may have told her not to worry about racing internationally. But whatever,
Certainly men don’t have to deal with the physical side of actually being pregnant. And it is true men make more money and some could install their families in Europe for part of the year. (As an aside, it seems the Worlds are not a priority for the top US men.) I think most men would be derided if they expressed a desire for more family time whereas a woman might not get that but the opposite. As far as the longer period of time men are able to father children, that is mitigated by the age of their significant other.
Anyway, IMO it is unrealistic to expect an American woman to race in Europe with her child in tow. I don’t think the money paid to them could support such a move. Then again, maybe the teams could assist on this and make it more reasonable.
Ice
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
As well as better paychecks,
yeah, the teams ought to come together to sponsor some childcare.
One camper van with multiple kiddie seats, driver, caretaker. Maybe have it do double duty as the broom wagon or something.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Right.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
The experience of practically everyone I know with small babies says different.
But never mind. Obviously everyone else outside my range of acquaintance is superhuman. Or perhaps the people I know are just rubbish.
& no, a winkie wouldn’t have helped, I don’t think.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
I don't have a wide range of people
recovering from multiple broken bones and internal injuries to compare it to, so I’m just having to take a guess that a baby does not present more challenges than recovery from a serious injury.
And my point is, either she’s not at full racing strength because she’s got a small baby, in which case she has no business being at worlds. Or she is at full racing strength, and has intrinsically assumed that doing some racing in Europe with a baby is more difficult than doing all her racing in the US with a baby. Which has nothing to do with whether “baby” itself is difficult.
If you think traveling with an infant (and yes, that includes work travel) is hard, it’s way, way harder to travel with a self-mobile toddler. Three months to 12 months is pretty good.
(Of course, these days, the overhead bins on airlines all have doors, and for safety, they would no longer let people put a bassinet up there, anyway. But they used to. And people did.) But in most cases they still fly free as “lap babies,” and there are “sky cots” for them up to 6 months old. Add a little extra for “extra leg room,” and the flight itself is no problem.
As for “in europe”—she must have some european friends and contacts among her old Cervelo test team squad with younger sibling’s who’d be delighted to trade some local travel for some baby care, no?
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
But I do apologize for the double post.
Been happening to me a couple of times in the last week, wonder whether it’s the site, my computer, or what.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
I blame
Flanders Classics. We’re all doing our best to get by right now…
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 16, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But it wouldn't be fair on Neben, either, to say
that “we think Armstrong would have been faster, had she raced more” – especially with the Nationals results
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 16, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the Nationals thing is a much better argument than where they've raced.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
But that's not what the rules say, according to the article
But the rules dictate: “Nomination will be based on individual time trial results from time trials held in international stage races, international time trial events, and National Championships time trial results.”
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 16, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
might have put that in the wrong place
was meant to be +1 to flying dog’s first point
by bingo_little on Sep 16, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
To clarify
I didn’t say they sent that message deliberately but it would surprise me very little if that were how it is received, by some moms at least. At some point they thought she was the best, then they reapplied a points scale which she can’t meet with a child. It’s NOT like an injury. She’s fit.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 16, 2011 4:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't see it as that *at all*
I mean yes, one reason Armstrong hasn’t got the international results this year is because she’s raising her baby at home – but it’s the same as if a rider was injured, or like Mara Abbott, chose to stay in the USA for other reasons rather than compete in Europe, and so didn’t get as many points?
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 16, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa
Did not see that angle at all. For me, professional athletics is a whole different world than the usual baby-career discussion. A professional athlete has to perform and get results regardless of what may be going on off the bike. Riders miss seasons or large parts of seasons for all kinds of reasions. Neben missed most of last year with injuries, for example. Then, they have to come back and earn their spots. That’s how competition works, you know?
~ Gavia ~
It's a messed up situation.
To whom did Neben appeal? If “the selection criteria” is X, was it then reinterpreted by the appellate body?
I keep seeing "Neben appealed against Armstrong being picked"
but do we know that? Surely Neben was appealing that she WASN’T picked, rather than it being about Armstrong?
Re Armstrong generally having out-ridden Neben – according to CQ, they’ve ridden in the same ITT 3 times this year – unless there are other races too, that aren’t big enough to turn up on CQ?
USA National Champs ITT: Neben 2nd, Armstrong 3rd
Stage 1, Redlands: Neben 1st, Armstrong 5th
Stage 1, San Dimas: Neben 1st, Armstrong 3rd
I know that they were both short ITTs, but I can’t see anywhere else they raced ITTs hed-to-head – the only other one I can think of that they both rode that isn’t on CQ was the California ITT, but that wasn’t even rated as a National Event, no? And maybe they rode in other un-rated ones?
Neben also came 3rd in the Pan-American Champs ITT, behind Clara Hughes & Evie Stevens – am I right in thinking Armstrong was injured out of that?
As I said in the other thread, I think it was surprising Armstrong was chosen in the first place, because Neben has been superb in the ITTs she’s ridden recently…
Armstrong beat out Neben at Solvang
which, was a head-to-head test. They’re fairly well-balanced in results in the time trial, but Armstrong does have that gold medal.
~ Gavia ~
But if they've raced 4 times
and Neben has been higher-placed in 3 of those races, that’s not generally beaten, right?
In Solvang, Neben was jumping on a plane and flying to race the next day, so it wasn’t necessarily riding at 100% – and it wasn’t a ranked race – so I’m not sure it should count the same as eg US Nationals, when Neben was a fraction off winning time.
I’m just confused, looking at the palmares, how the decision was made in the first place…
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 16, 2011 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure how many is the key here
I don’t use CQ, so not sure what’s there. Howevs, the conventional wisdom is that Armstrong is the better time trial rider. That view is based less on counting up wins than on who she has beaten and in what context. For example, it is typically harder to win a World Championship in an off-Olympic year than the same year as the Olympics. The best riders peak for the Olympics. Neben won Worlds during the same year as Olympics, Armstrong won Olympics and Worlds, against full fields.
I don’t know, it’s six of one, half dozen of the other, really. Me, I think there’s always going to be tears in this decision. USA Cycling totally blew this one, though. They needed to make a call and stick to it. I think the coaches should have more discretion, but in the past, that has caused problems, too. No real good way to do this, but this decision to change it up when Armstrong was already on the plane was very poorly handled. Very.
~ Gavia ~
Gav....sorry but...gotta counter your conventional wisdom statement....
Armstrong WAS the best TT rider. Her past accomplishments do NOT give her a slam dunk invite. Neben and Stevens are the future.
Amber Neben is NOT the future.
She is about 18 months younger than Kristin Armstrong.
Evelyn Stevens is the future as she is 28 years old.
Ice <~~~~~~~no future
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
The upcoming Worlds are pretty much the NOW.
I understood your statement as a reference as if Neben represented “the future” for US women’s ITT. Glad you cleared that up.
Ice
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
Do the coaches have any imput?
If so, then they should have stuck with the original decision and allowed Armstrong to ride. Subjective decisions are always endlessly debatable, but they should not be overturned unless it is obviously wrong. For better or worse they chose Kristin Armstrong over Amber Neben. With Armstrong on the ground in Copenhagen, it is kinda late to make a change like this.
Ice
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
The coaches do have
input, but only within the framework of the election rules.
~ Gavia ~
by Jen See on Sep 17, 2011 7:45 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They do but...
Armstrong’s coach is Jim Miller, the director of endurance programs at USAC, potentially a conflict of interest…
Pigeons...I said it in the other thread and I will say it again....well stated!!
USA Cycling absolutely bungled this decision!! I respect Armstrong….but Neben is the correct decision this year.
Why throw over the road race because you can't race the TT?
Yes, it’s her specialty, but you’re already there. Why would you not at least race for the sake of racing?
I’m not so sure about the whole “no babies” message. Every race, every sprint is also a situation where a crash can take you out of racing and conditioning for months, and do more damage to you than procreating does.
Might make more sense to let women use current year and three years back in place of current year and two years back for those who’ve had a kid, but frankly, pregnancy doesn’t necessarily line up well with the cycling calendar, and anyway, what do we do for someone who has two kids in two years? Or three kids in three years? Or someone who adopts, and has the sleepless nights, but not the pregnancy? Or someone without kids who cracks ribs and blows both knees out, and is coming back from reconstructive surgery? Won’t they feel done hard by, if someone who “only” had a kid gets to pick and choose the results?
IMHO, so long as everyone knows the criteria, people—any gender—have to make their choices within those criteria. There’s no “right” to defend your jersey, unless the rules say you have the right.
Whether the criteria pick the best rider is a separate issue, and if everyone agrees they are not designed to do the job, then re-write the criteria. But frankly, we don’t know that Armstrong is currently stronger, after the sum of all that’s happened in her life in the past couple of years.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Frustration, probably
I suspect that was mostly frustration at the late decision, and she knows the course this year does not at all suit her talents. Why help someone else win when she isn’t going to get a shot at what she does best?
~ Gavia ~
I know that's rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway.
You help others because it makes friends, and if you want to keep racing with a small kid, you can use all the friends you can get? (They really don’t travel better, or act more rationally, at age 2. Age 3 can be rough, too. Diapers plus coordination plus mobility plus curiosity.)
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Doesn't sound like Armstrong and Neben are ever going to be besties, especially after this
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
Fair enough. Just saying that a reputation for being a team player and good egg
is a good reputation to have. Peoloton isn’t that large.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
Is it just the Americans?
That seem to botch up their international team selections with clumsy, bureaucratic selection criteria employed (and re-employed) by committees, or do others shoot themselves in the foot in the same way. Seems to me the Italians, etc., and this year the Australians, choose a team leader, and it’s all up to him (or her) to select the members using their knowledge and experience to do so.
At the very least, this committee has to admit incompetence either in the first decision or second. Further, while Neben may actually have a better shot at winning than K. Armstrong at the World’s, I have no doubt that K. Armstrong would be a better pick for the Olympics. But this decision makes it very hard for Armstrong to make it to London.
the Rogers vs Renshaw thing is maybe similar
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
OK, off topic, but is it really Rogers vs Renshaw?
Granted, I haven’t read the reasons given to why Renshaw wasn’t picked, if it’s published somewhere. But personally I would never use Rogers as a stand-in for Renshaw in a lead-out.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 16, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
not sure
i was just saying the two cases seem similar in that there was a change of riders late in the game.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
You could read the reasons at Cyclingtips blog...or at sbscyclingcentral.com.au
There’s a belief I think that there’s a good chance that only the very strongest will survive until the end, so it may be that Goss will be on his own, assuming Goss is really fit enough. On the other hand, knowing that Rogers CAN go that far and has recently done so, the best scenario is that Rogers, Gerrans, GHH and O’Grady are there…or even Cooke. Rogers has had plenty of practice doing the last drive before Hincapie took over. Bennati’s win at the Vuelta suggests it would be O’Grady who would do the last 200 metres. That of course is in a perfect (Australian) WC race. The reality is that only Denmark even had three riders left at the finish last year. Great Britain also has a team of hard men and Cav. I find it hard to bet against him, except for the fact that there’s a little rise at the end.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
To be honest
as painful as I find it to say it there’s probably a good argument for having both Neben and Armstrong in ahead of Evie Stevie. I know she’s the national champ etc. so there’s no real wiggle room there but I doubt she’ll do as well as either of the others would.
I don’t think it’s unfair for Neben to get it ahead of Armstrong though. Although as others say the timing is a bit crazy.
yeah
I think we all agree that the process for deciding this was abysmal.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 16, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
All too true.
Typical cycling bureaucracy think. AFU to the end.
"In the US it is a felony to wegdraag your love."-Chris F
by frans verbiage on Sep 16, 2011 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
USA Cycling's Principles of Athlete Selection
Amusing and sad.
http://www.usacycling.org/forms/selection/principles.pdf
Here’s a lawyer-written sample of bureaucratic nonsense.
Definitions and Criteria
1. Medal Capable. A medal capable athlete is one who has demonstrated the
ability to produce a medal winning result by:
• medal finishes at World Championships or Olympic Games within 12
months; with demonstration of continued ability to perform at that level
or higher based on performances in recent top-level international
competition; and/or
• producing medal capable times under certified conditions within the
past 12 months; and/or
• consistently beating the Worlds best in recent (past 12 months)
international competition with top-quality fields; and/or
• other recent historical performances in International competition that
would indicate the athlete is capable of a medal winning performance.
In all cases, the athlete in question must demonstrate that they remain
capable of a medal capable performance at the time of selection and the time
of the event to which the athlete has been selected.
The document goes on to define “future medal capable”, “nonmedal capable”, “new or young” international class athletes, who are identified as “future medal capable”, “future medal capable” vs better performing, but “nonmedal capable”, and does so by highly insightful graphs.
Maybe I’m wrong but I was under the impression that the cycling authorities in Italy picked Paolo Bettini to lead the Italian team, and he said, “Grazie, faro del mio meglio per I’Italia.” And that was that. The rest was up to him.
If they say beforehand that they're going to follow a strict set of rules
then they should follow a strict set of rules. But man, what a major fuck-up to select someone, fly them out to Copenhagen and then deselect them. I think maybe Neben should’ve been selected over Armstrong, but once they picked Armstrong, they should’ve let her stay. I think. I’m not sure though.
I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.
"fly them out to Copenhagen..."
Unless the policy has changed recently, USA Cycling typically asked the athletes to pay their own way to the world championships.
And, on the subject of why Armstrong didn’t participate in international races, last time I checked, Peanut Butter & Co. TWENTY12 wasn’t racing internationally. You can’t just show up and race as an individual, as Alexi Grewal found out in his quest to compete in “that race in Colorado.”
by Chief Commissaire on Sep 16, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
indeed
that’s worse.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 16, 2011 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
And actually, I think you can guest ride for other teams
or for national squads
I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.
Yes, there have been a few PB2012 who have ridden for Team USA this year
Coryn Rivera, Lauren Tamayo & Alison Starnes, definitely have, off the top of my head, possibly more, but the USA-based teams are not my strong point
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 16, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Nicola Cranmer - PB&Co Director is very tied into USA Cycling....
….and that is why you see more PB&Co gals. I was extremely happy to see Colavita riders in Europe…after all Colavita was the best domestic women’s team this year.
Yeah
I would be surprised if USAC paid Armstrong’s travel. So, there’s a double fail there from USAC. Write rules that don’t really allow “coach’s discretion,” then, exercise coach’s discretion, then reverse the decision, and, leave the athlete to pick up the pieces both professionally and financially. Yikez.
I think Armstrong put everything on the National Championship, and then, when the crash derailed things, she didn’t have a fall-back plan.
~ Gavia ~
I think she could reasonably demand that they pay her for the ticket under the circumstances
(assuming she’s not writing it off on her taxes anyway). And actually, maybe that’s why she headed straight home—no benefit to her, all injury, take it to small claims court.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Not at the last minute, I suppose,
but in the womens’ field, there certainly have been some “just a few race” mini teams or partnerships or national groupings, or whatever the heck the actual agreements are, that let people come over for a few big races. That’s how come racers like Tamayo are listed for WVDS (and why I picked her).
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
I think USAC claims they warned Armstrong the appeal was pending...
and told her when the decision would be reached (i.e. after her planned arrival in Copenhagen), so that she had the option to wait, and she went anyway. So she was not completely blindsided, if their version is accurate.
Still sucks, though, that the decision would come so close to the race.
Start fast, finish fast, and hope you're fast enough-- Cadel Evans
again...
as Jim Miller is Kristin’s coach, I would think he would have told her that her selection spot was being contested by Amber. Even if he didn’t, I cannot imagine Kristin thinking that Amber would not fight for that spot.
An aside - I am so impressed with Neben, because as far as I know, she's kept super-quiet about this
You know, gone through the correct route, and not said anything publicly – it’s only with the Armstrong press release (NTTAWTT) that we here – not like eg the Renshaw stuff – Neben has been tweeting about the races, having fun with the team & team success, when she could have been kicking off
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 17, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree more.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Wonder if it was a bluff that got called.
“They wouldn’t wait until you’re there, and then tell you to come back, now would they?”
Otherwise, I can’t see much reason to go there quite this early, if you’re so desperate to eke out every single moment with the kidlet and the support network at home.
Well, I can, but it would involve having had a bit too much kidlet time! : )
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
If cycling wasn't so fun...
Between the doping procedural screw ups, the UCI’s constant PR/operational/functional/behavioral/(insert your own word here) mess, teams merging, cyclists forgetting to do whereabouts, and national team selection madness … the sport just looks stupid.
Thank God there was a Cance last year and a Gilbert this year – performing feats of awesomeness. Thank God there are great actual races (all the GTs this year entertained). The stuff happening on the bike is awesome, but the stuff off it is atrocious.
Do you think it’s a money issue? Cycling’s got the best people their money can buy – it’s just not enough money to do it right? The off the bike stuff just looks like Larry, Mo, and Curly to me…
On June 15
Armstrong won the 6.1 mile ITT at Nature Valley, finishing 23 seconds ahead of Stevens and 29 ahead of Neben.
meh
too short to be of help.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 17, 2011 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Huge gap, but irrelevant distance.
Shows she’s got good form and massive power, says nothing about endurance (which might be most likely to suffer under the circumstances).
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
While it might make sense given how well Neben has done this year...
I just remember how well Armstrong is at focusing in on one goal and being able to train solely for that better than almost anyone in the women’s peloton…especially on a power course like Copenhagen, seems that Armstrong would be quite the powerhouse…though I would be shocked if anyone beats Arndt this year
Hughes, Clara.
"I love the guys that everyone else in the peloton hate to see hit the front." sminer
Some good info there!
Ice
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
That's very interesting
So Armstrong wasn’t de-selected for the RR, she chose to pull out?
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 17, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
yup, as reported in the original link.
Wondering if it’s a “reimburse me” move, or (as Gav suggests) just not a course she thought she could do much with, or a snit fit, or she doesn’t want to risk injury in a high-powered pack after racing mostly slightly lower caliber races, where she could choose to get away from the pack, or what. I can see her wanting to start next year fresh and uninjured.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Pigeons...I thought so too....
Neben does not replace her in the RR. Perhaps when she cools down…she will go back and support her USA team mates…well….at least I hope she does.
Thats a lot of money to fly back to Copenhagen just to sit there and cheer
by Vlaanderen90 on Sep 18, 2011 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Support her teammates, including Neben after being taken off the TT?
I couldn’t see myself doing that and I can’t image a winner like Armstrong really doing that either. There’s probably too much hostility on her part.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
Well, that's clear.
I think we can all understand having an immediate “if I’m being screwed, screw everyone” moment. But having that reaction all the way to the airport… and onto the plane… not the most impressive emotional display, if that’s all it is. I mean, given that she was warned ahead of time that the decision could come out against her, it’s not like it can have come as a complete, unanticipated shock.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
It's not . . .
. . . I’m being screwed, so screw everyone else. That’s childish and there’s no evidence that K. Armstrong is childish in that way. I’d suggest the following as more likely motivations, either in some combination, or all together. 1. Humiliation. I’m the reigning Olympic champion, with two World titles as well. And, now I’ve just been slighted by my own national committee. I don’t really want to appear before the rest of the peloton, or the press, or anyone else, who’ll all think when they see me only about the fact that I was dissed by my own nat. committee. 2. I can’t sincerely race as a true teammate with Amber Neben in the road race. I can’t trust her at all, and I’m so freakin’ pissed, I’ll probably puke if I have to do any work with her. 3. This is so upsetting, I just want to be as far away from this place as possible.
by Le Sprinteur on Sep 24, 2011 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
This is an example of the moral and ethical issues that surround international events like the Olympics.
The nationalistic tenor of these events means that qualified contestants can’t compete because while they might be among the best in the world, others in their own country are presumably better than they are. An unbiased observer would have to admit that Armstrong is at least one of the top 50 time trial riders in the world and on the basis of even recent results belongs in the field. But the selection process, which limits the numbers of entrants by country, means that one of the best can’t compete while riders from other countries that would finish many minutes behind her are in the field. We see this carried to its extreme with characters like “Eddie the Eagle”, the Monty Pythonesque British Olympic ski jumper. Individual time trials are by definition individual competitions and restricting entrants on the basis of nationality, which is unrelated to one’s talent, certainly diminishes any achievement by the winner. A world competition should be open to the best in the world, not the best in various countries.
Except
one can argue that the World Championships isn’t a one-week event but an event that starts at the beginning of the season and ends with a grand finale. And during the season everyone has the opportunity to qualify.
Also, it depends on how World Championships is defined. If you want a competition with participants from every part of the world, as opposed to all the best in the world, you will probably need some restrictions.
(Note: these two points are not supposed to be taken together, they’re two different viewpoints.)
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 18, 2011 4:58 AM EDT up reply actions
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