Bottomfeed here. Doping and other unmentionables open thread.
by JFS_PGH on Sep 4, 2011 11:54 AM EDT
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This is a "dear god can we keep it out of the live posts no matter how many reputable sources are engaging in broad hints" thread. Someone look like they have fresh legs when everyone else dies? Was this his childhood training ride, or are we counting days until the tests come back, or both? Have at it here, if you must. Also a place to rehash anything else you've been too polite to bring up elsewhere. Let's consider this the Vegas of threads, and state right up front that this is all rampant speculation, and could and should not be taken as news by any lazy third party looking for an easy story.
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It's a drag that I'm sitting here watching a GT stage and that's what I'm thinking about.
It’s a drag whether it’s true or not. You just can’t enjoy a simple race any more.
For me, personally,
just of riders who have such incredibly shady pasts as Cobo does
I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.
Bad friends / teammates
Pieps, Cobra. And he has gone from fantastic (with dirty team) to average (with team of unknown cleanness) and is now fantastic again. But that’s pretty circumstantial. Most of the riders now riding have had at least a brush with a team where somebody was popped. He was not actually on UCI’s “test these guys extra” list. Now, whether that means he got tested less, or small teams got tested less, is a fair question. But does anyone know if this is or was his “backyard climb”?
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
He wasn't on the list
because he didn’t ride the Tour. I believe that’s how that thing worked.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 4, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, maybe two years ago I would've defended the guy
but I’m too much of a cynic for that now
I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.
More suspicious of the rider that has two days at front on very hard days
And smokes the field on the second one.
To quote Edward Pickering
I haven’t seen Cobo climbing this well since he accompanied Leonardo Piepoli up Hautacam in the 08 Tour.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
I had to crack open a beer at 11 in the morning once Mollema got dropped
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
I wish he could have at least made the podium
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
The freshness was a bit suspicious
The win isn’t necessarily suspicious. It’s not like he out climbed Andy Schleck in the Tour.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
So is a thread about Boonen's unmentionable bottom problem?
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
No
It’s a critique of the relative performance of unknown riders who are performing very well vis-a-vis proven grand tour contenders. Doping is suspected by some. But that violates live thread etiquette.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
anything you'd feel rude about discussing elsewhere.
Here, people are forewarned. If they read, they’re asking for it.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
That too. Whatever you want it to be.
Taint (perineum behind the scrotum) or scrotum?
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
I'll take the second option :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Less so than wild speculations about a rider who wins IMO, although neither topic appeals.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Tombos ballsack vs spanish connect the dots?
get real.
by Davide Don of Rio on Sep 4, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Why don't you instead?
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
thank you two
for walking away here.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 4, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
must've misunderstood that
because I got excited for a second.
Life is full of opportunities to shut the fuck up.
Fastidiousness is intrinsically misplaced here.
Pull on whatever waders and blinkers you need, or exit before stepping deeper, because the smell’s not going to improve.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
and that's to all readers, not just Seahorse and Davide.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
So now we're talking about Tom's ballsack?
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Well, perineum can refer to the entire area
wasn’t sure if there had been something more specific in the usually very frank Dutch news, or the slightly more fastidious Belgian news. Wondering if he should be off the saddle to heal. Also wondering if there’s a juicy story behind it, just because he’s been quite a source of juicy stories in the past.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
NB, the regular post stage thread is also up, and this isn't it.
Also please note that the regular rules of discourse vis a vis the other posters are still in effect. It’s dangerous to light flames in a sewer.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
I agree. I gather the Spanish media believed that either yesterday or today would belong to Cobo.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Spanish media not exactly doping critical
by R Mc on Sep 4, 2011 11:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That's what I was thinking.
Until we see data, maybe Cobo was the fastest of a fairly slow group.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
You looking at the dynamic duo?
I can’t look at Wiggo without thinking he may be over the edge into an eating problem. And the early stages of true starvation can produce insane bursts of energy (presumably evolutionarily useful for starving hunters who were either going to die slowly in place, or get moving to find new game). Isn’t he way, way thinner than before? Or am I imagining things?
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
What lasts for a week or two in nature
can probably be drawn out longer under a doc’s supervision. Hell of a way to live, though.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Yep he looks frighteningly skinny
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
Skinny yes, but very healthy looking
when seen at the start of the race. He doesn’t look quite so “bad” in the flesh than he does on the tv. He is very tall so think it accentuates the skinniness.
He looks positively beefy compared to many riders. Practically every rider over 5’9" that climbs looks pretty much the same. Miller always looks like he needs a good meal, Tejay too.
Saw an interview with O'Grady yesterday and he looked like a wraith, albeit a wryly smiling one.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
You reckon?
At the Nat Champs he looked fine on the bike but once he got off it he looked like he might snap in two… I don’t think that’s an “eating problem” though. I think it’s only an “eating problem” if it’s somehow compulsive or if you can’t recover from it.
Having said that, from that point of view I do wonder about Wiggins last year. The consensus between him & the team is that he “didn’t put the work in”. But I wonder if he was still recovering in some way from the previous year, which in turn makes me wonder about next year. There must be a limit to how often you can do that to your body.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
that's why I was looking for the recent article.
It was written from the POV of someone who had maybe gone just a bit over that edge, when riding for a team that encouraged a very hard line towards eating. He was talking about a rider weighing out 30 g of pasta to go with a salad, and secret binges in the rooms, with threats of ejection from the trainers. The piece made it clear that it’s a pretty fraught situation, and that the lines between choice, discipline and compulsion can easily become blurred.
After all, something can be intentional and pathological at the same time, can’t it? If “the way some cyclists eat due to concerns about weight and body fat” does not meet the classical definitions for anorexia, does that mean it’s all fine and dandy, nothing to see here, move right along?
After all, the definitions were mostly based on girls and young women, and may show a skew towards how things present in that population, just as the “how to recognize a heart attack” guidelines were long biased towards the ways that heart attacks present in men (chest and arm pain in men vs. weakness and nausea/cold sweats in women for example).
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
I'm aware of that.
Not least because the one person I knew who had a serious eating disorder (an artist I worked with on a project around this issue) was a man.
But I don’t think it has anything to do with a team encouraging “a very hard line towards eating” in this case. Otherwise Wiggins has been very unlucky with two teams in a row. It’s coming from him. Then as for “intention” and “pathology”, it’s very hard not to look at most sportspeople’s bodies (except perhaps golfers and spin bowlers) & see something pathological somewhere. I think of this extraordinary radio programme I heard about rugby players’ so-called nutrition, which basically consisted of protein shakes & not much else, & found that kind of body-building arms race considerably more alarming than (personally, anyway) I do Wiggins’ weight loss. Other than the possible inability to do it two years in a row (which is a speculation on my part) I don’t actually see what evidence there is of harm in this case, unlike say in rugby where players getting bigger & bigger seems to increase the potential for serious injury to one another?
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
The jury will discuss the matter tomorrow
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 4, 2011 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Getting my mitigation in first
it’s a very rare one from me. (Cricket’s been dead to me since the advent of test matches all being on Sky.) Perhaps I should have said “snooker players”? But I can hear my dad saying “snooker’s not a sport, it’s a game”…
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
They show snooker on Eurosport
it has the habit of going on forever, getting in the way of cycling. Lawn bowlers are alright.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 4, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I suspect my dad
would class bowls as a game, too.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Risk of skeletal degredation
As body catabolizes bone for fuel.
Long-rumored
by R Mc on Sep 4, 2011 11:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Being a professional sportsperson
tends to knacker the body, one way or another. I’m not saying it’s good or right, just questioning why this seems to be considered “different”.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
The snap in two thing though
is from being skinny. Doesn’t have to mean de facto unhealthy . Agree unreservedly that being under your natural bodyweight for a very prolonged period can be detrimental to health, and/or have other consequences – have known more than enough “wasting” jockeys to know that to be true. But also the obverse is possible – can reduce weight “healthily”, keep weight down “healthily”, and perform well.
Said he looked healthy at the start – his skin, his eyes, his muscle tone, etc., he looked in fine shape – he was just skinny. A more complementary word for it is lean, but he is too tall (with a tendency to look a bit gawky because of that) to truly fit that word.
I'm not saying he's not healthy.
Indeed, I’m arguing somewhat against the notion that he isn’t. I’m just saying that when I saw him off (as opposed to on) the bike at the Nat Champs he was very strikingly thin indeed.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
I think I saw something saying he was starting here lighter than at the Tour
I have real reservations about his weight issues – they said after the ‘09 Tour that he’d ended up in the medical starvation zone – and that his wife had to nurse him back to health afterwards.
I just don’t understand how a rider can climb mountains when his body is in starvation mode. I’m not saying doping, just that it can’t be good in the long term, health-wise. One reason I’m anti-doping is the health implications, and I feel the same about starvation
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 4, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed. Been trying to find an article that popped up a couple of days ago about that.
Unhealthy weight obsession, they called it, I think. But there have been other well-covered instances of bona fide anorexia. This isn’t the one I was thinking of, but it’s pretty damning.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
found it.
Velonews, recent and close at hand. Ben Greenwood. Might be worth its own fanshot—it’s well written, and includes some very cool insight into team dynamics off the course—but here it is, anyway.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
I'm not sure what the evidence is he's "starving" though?
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Nobody is saying that he is starving.
I’m saying that he’s scary skinny, and that 2 or 3 weeks’ performance alone is not an indication that someone is healthy & not starving. And that close-to-pathological food control, by either riders or teams, is one of the dirty (not-so-) secrets of the cycling world.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
your comment
reminded me of the pez interview with brian vandborg during the TdF.
PEZ: What are the main differences between Liquigas and Saxo?
BV: With Bjarne, all the little things count and he’ll try things out.
Also Brad McGee is very knowledgeable and still remembers what it’s like to be a rider.
Liquigas is more ‘old school’ – ’we’ve always done it like this.’
As an example, at Liquigas they were always concerned that you’d get too fat so they wouldn’t let you eat right after a race – but that’s when you have to eat, when your body is crying out for nutrition.
If you don’t eat then, you end up eating biscuits late because you’re so hungry.
I remember Stannard saying something similar about ISD when he rode for them that year.
He’d come up through the very controlled & scientific BC system & then found himself on a team where they didn’t like you drinking water in the evening.
However, Wiggins is on neither Liquigas or ISD. I’m not sure I see the relevance.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Just that the line between constructive and destructive calorie limitation
can get mighty blurry. For a trainer or for an individual rider.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
What the ... what?!?
I thought they were doing science now in Italy. Wait, let me rephrase that…
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 5, 2011 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
About half way down the page. But this is ISD or Farnese Vini or whatever they’re called don’t forget.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
but wasn't Liqui
the team that had the cannoli bar, according to Ted King? maybe that is the old school Italian way
by bdr on Sep 5, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
nowt wrong with that :-)
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Starvation was the word Pigeons used.
& in Wiggins’ case, this is not a “dirty secret” by any means. It’s extraordinarily well documented.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
I was questioning the "is" not the "starvation."
Starvation does happen in the peloton, at a rate depending on how precisely you choose to define starvation. The current discussion / worry was prompted by Wiggins. But nobody as far as stating that he IS starving. Just that he COULD be, and the he kinda LOOKS it, and that there is bad precedent for it based on the results of his previous food deprivation problems. With, perhaps, the sub-text that he’s had a lot of stress and expectations and some fairly well documented emotional ups and downs, and that his version of “get serious / buckle down” might involve dangerous levels of food deprivation.
Or else he’s pegged it just right, has no bad food issues, is very thin, but will be enjoying a nice big plate of something-or-other as soon as this race is over. I’ll hope for that answer. But frankly, I don’t like seeing riders show up looking like they’re at 4% body fat, and got there fast and badly. 5 lbs is a lot for a rider to lose in a short time, while building muscle.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
He interviewed about it after that Tour
Or his team did – I’m sure it was him though, saying something like he was in the medically-defined-as-starvation zone by the end – of course, that could be defined by BMI or something else that doesn’t relate to athletes, & apologies for not finding the link!
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 5, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions
It was that he ended the Tour in the starvation zone, btw
Not that he always/usually is – but that he lost shed-loads before the start, & at the end of the race had no fat left at all
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 5, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
at which point you're starting to metabolize as food little bits of your body like, oh,
your fat based hormones, nerve sheathing, cell membranes, brain, bone marrow, and various other essential organs? I’d say that falls into “not a good idea.”
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
It might well not be a good idea per se
but again, a lot of what athletes do to their bodies falls in the same category: I’m not sure why anyone thinks this is all that different. You only need to look at the number of retired footballers getting hip replacements or whatever.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Um, no, no they don't.
Not sure where that assertion is coming from. This isn’t stuff you necessarily fully recover from, and it can be deadly.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
You're correct. Wiggins reported as 2.5 kg lighter for Vuelta than for TdF
That’s a really dangerous zone to be in—and recovery gets really compromised.
I think most of the heads of state (Nibali, JRod, Scarponi, etc.) wore themselves out in the early stages.
They were fighting for seconds on a tough course in hot weather. So now that those guys are done, you have the second-tier riders fighting it out.
Either that, or the guys we thought were first-tier simply weren’t.
Start fast, finish fast, and hope you're fast enough-- Cadel Evans
Since this IS the bottom-feeding doping thread
I’ll play connect the needle-tracks a little bit.
What are we seeing? Erstwhile contenders unable to recover from massive efforts on previous days. Could be the heat. Of course, previous Vueltas have also been hot. And . . . it was 8c at the top of Angrilu . . .
There are MANY possible explanations for this, so I don’t want to dive headfirst into the muck, but consider that we might be seeing riders unable or unwilling to use the ‘traditional’ recovery methods.
that's good, right?
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 4, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely
but additional dot-connecting might lead to looking at which riders aren’t looking as solid as they have before…..
But for the sake of the future it is a great development.
In that sense,
I was sort of thrilled when people started going sideways, like in old cycling films. We really have not seen as much of that in recent years.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
I'm happy when I see riders not just breathing through their nose
but gasping open mouthed for every bit of oxygen they can get…..
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
by muk on Sep 4, 2011 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, definitely.
No way of telling whose GT credentials are real and whose not. It’s a hall of mirrors.
Start fast, finish fast, and hope you're fast enough-- Cadel Evans
I think
this is about geology.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 4, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It's probably about maths
would explain why i don’t get it
I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.
Do you really want me to post an Anthony Weiner photo?
Don’t just blurt out the answer. Consider the ramifications.
only if you want hits from the rest of the netiverse.
And that’s the only aspect that troubles me. So if it makes you a high level of happy, feel free.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Ah, completely passed me by
Henderson’s gaffe was worse, I think, although his probably was for a politician in a christian-fundamentalist country with hardly any separation between church and state.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
I'm dissapointed.
It was you who said:
And anyway, performance is the crappiest base for doping-suspicions ever.
My "hate the Vuelta" comment had nothing to do with Cobo's performance
I know since long before today what Cobo is. The disappointment comes from the fact that it looked until today like the riders that aren’t so shady were going to do really well. But then up pops JJ, just like usuall and turns the Vuelta into a race for the bums.
by Jens on Sep 4, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No. Ricco, Sella, Kohl, Schuhmacher.
I’d say that certain types of WTF performances are a good base for suspicion.
I will grudgingly admit to this
Sella’s repeat wins and Schumacher’s stellar performances after being in big breakaways AND topping with amazing TTs stood out. I can’t say that Ricco had any real WTF moment’s in my book, just a string of fantastic results that looked bad when you learned other things about him.
Still in my head, I file those away thinking a shoe might drop there. I don’t feel comfortable pointing a finger or raising questions publicly. I have one rider that is on that status right now where I try my darndest not to air my skepticism since it really has no base in anything tangible.
And I'm sensitive to your discomfort:
the WTF performance is a big component, but not the only one.
In retrospect, Sella’s was the most egregious . . .
Riccò at Superbesse.
I will never forget. He didn’t bloody breathe.
"I’m hoping for the Mortirolo-Gavia combination, then we can ride down to Bormio for ice cream." Emma Pooley on the Giro Donne
Cobo has always been a good climber
but his previous associations and the fact that he is still with Gianetti doesn’t inspire faith. The Geox team looked awesome today, at least half the team. Like I said, doesn’t inspire much faith.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
Is too much of a team looking too good a reason to worry, more than one good ride?
I sometimes suspect exactly that. A sort of “team that dopes together stays silent together.” But the big busts in the past tend to have nailed guys who seem to be working more independently. And of course a good training regimen or race plan (or light season) can apply to an entire team.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
yes they had a light season because they weren't invited to the Tour
But they have looked like crap the whole season and now the whole team looks good? I might be inclined to chalk that up to a good training plan if it weren’t this team, too much of a past.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
in this case, yes, I lean a bit the same way.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Chris Boardman said on twitter than Cobo used a 34x32....
Not that is an indication of anything else, just an interesting point re: today
'I dropped my torch in the cave of pain ... It's pretty dark in here.'
could this be another example
of riders learning that they need to try different strategies in a cleaner peloton? No more turbo charged riders storming up in big gears. Are we coming to a day when a rider is going to test positive for a front triple?
Many people used triples first time the Vuelta up Angy Lou a few years back.
The rider who won the stage was using a triple.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
wow I didn't know that
that’s cool
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 4, 2011 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
This was certainly an easy day to be overgeared
And being overgeared over those last 6-7km. Well that’s going to hurt.
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
Surprising to me.
I mean, they knew they were going to have to climb the thing, they knew how steep it was… why would they not give a little more thought to their gearing? Is it just a macho thing? Is there some horrible disadvantage to having a super-low gear that you might possibly not use?
Start fast, finish fast, and hope you're fast enough-- Cadel Evans
Interesting point
A mate of mine prefers the triple he has back at home to the bike with a compact 34 with a 27 at the back which he used in the Alps and Pyrenees – he reckoned the gaps between gears were too big on the compact compared to what you could get on a triple…. I think he said that from the 23 the next tooth is the 27 when using the compact…
So judging from that experience I can understand then not wanting to have that super low gear if it is just a massive jump to it and there is no comfortable medium!
'I dropped my torch in the cave of pain ... It's pretty dark in here.'
POST STAGE THREAD
for people who want to avoid the “bottom-feeding”
http://www.podiumcafe.com/2011/9/4/2404261/vuelta-stage-15-cobo-steals-angliru-thunder
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 4, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of unmentionables
Can we agree on ignoring Giro di Padania? OK, good.
(Because it’s a fascist political stunt, if you want to know.)
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
Agreed
I will continue to have no idea what you’re talking about.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 4, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Riccardo Ricco is a doper
there I said it!
by Phil H. on Sep 4, 2011 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think this guy is too:
He’s likable enough…but he’s got doper written all over him…
by JustJoshinYa on Sep 4, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
True
this was after a 220km mountain stage.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 4, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Now, Phil! Your comment made me thinking!
And you know, Floyd and his book only convinced me on, say 90% that he is innocent!
"I love bike races warm up, warm down, cobbles mountains or flats."
perezbike
.
Well
I’m sorry I brought it out in the open, but the suspicions seemed to be bubbling up, and I didn’t want to go blindly into writing a post-race thread. Cobo’s past results (10th in the Vuelta, 19th in the Tour) and the lack of guys with major palmares here could suggest he had a chance here. He didn’t come completely from nowhere.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 4, 2011 12:24 PM EDT reply actions
yeah this is a major point to consider
not many truly elite climbers here. Could argue Anton, but his form is bad; Sastre, but he’s past his prime; anyone else?
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 4, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah I thought about those guys
but Nibali is a diesel guy — I think of him as a solid all-rounder who can climb, but not an elite climber.
Maybe I haven’t put enough thought into it, but I think of Rodriguez as a slightly climbier Gilbert — a great guy to get up a very steep but short rise, but not a real pure climber for the high mountains in the sense of Schleck or Contador.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 4, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
pretty obviously not w/ J Rod.
These long, long climbs, not for him … at least not this year.
I dunno about Nibali?
Never mind how you do it but if you are consistently in the top 3 on the toughest climbs aren’t you a climber then? Surely the outcome is the main thing, not whether you do it grinding, in bursts or “au danseuse” or however?
yeah true,
I just feel like the grinder guys run into trouble the steeper it gets. I keep thinking of this year’s Giro, Contador and Scarponi getting gaps on him because he couldn’t follow their changes of pace.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 4, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The Giro is important...
… It was a long time ago, but it was SUCH a hard race that I’m not surprised people aren’t getting back to their best. Nibbles is the only top ten rider who rode the Giro. The top three didn’t ride the TdF, either.
I’m not going to say anyone is clean, particularly Cobo, but it might just be that the “stars” are subpar. Though the times for the Angrilu are pretty amazing, if that’s the case.
by EdredonBrowny on Sep 4, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
It's possible Cobo is dopped
but when you look at the GC you see a lot of guys who you wouldn’t expect so high. It looks like all the big names we expected to do well have not, otherwise there are a lot of guys who you would loop into the same group as Cobo. Seems like there may even still be a Giro fatigue factor in the Vuelta, which would show just how hard that course was(and make Bert’s performance remarkable…but I digress) and that has affected the bigs. Meanwhile JVB is not quite recovered as well as Wiggins.
and "well-recovered"
is a bit hard to gauge anyway. Is Wiggo back on his Tour form? Or something less? Anyway, it’s not like he has all that much grand tour history either.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 4, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Even more off topic,
MTF has meanings besides mountain top finish. So I get the chortles when someone says “back-to-back MTF’s.” I think of the girls on mudflaps, only…a little different. Back to back.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
I just love the headliner and intro of this thread.
good job JFS_PGH
Also, DiLuca is a doper, let’s just remove Phil H’s suspicions.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
bottomfeed and unmentionables
so i clicked the link. And no photos of anything but dopey. Oh well, life goes on …
ednl tried to goad me into posting pics of my unmentionables
but I suspect that wouldn’t have made much more worthwhile?
no, no, you're right, they wouldn't.
Even dopey’s unmentionables really wouldn’t have helped. I think i’ll go bottomfeed elsewhere.
Two things:
1. “Performance is the worst basis for doping suspicions ever” – Jens.
2. Gearing. Cobo was differently geard than the other favorites, and if his team did well, one might think that generally they were approaching it differently (though I didn’t get a look at Sastre’s or Menchov’s rear wheels).
Yep.
Like Jens says above to Frinking who repeats it, there are indeed other reasons to worry. But there’s at least a chance that this was non-dumb equipment choices.
Mollema looked like his bike had the better of him
The others looked fine to me. Beat, but not stomping on pedals. Of course, we didn’t get to watch the chase group for the last third of the climb.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
And if you go to the serious thread, you'll see Mollema's gearing
was just a little more “off” than others, and Cobo (and maybe the rest of Geox) just a little more “on,” for the steepest steeps. But let’s not let this thread hijack the serious thread. Talk gearing there. Come here if that little Midas voice is whispering in your asses ears, and you have to whisper something into a hole in the ground.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
The problem is
"Performance is the worst basis for doping suspicions ever"
but but but…
how frequently have we said “this really looks like a cleaner peloton. People are cracking, they look tired, they are riding like humans.”
Isn’t that kind of the same thing?
Schleckonds.
by dees ees en drama on Sep 5, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
"it ain't what you do, it's the way you do it"?
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Some stats
41:55 2002 heras
43:12 2008 contador
43:24 2002 tonkov
43:24 2002 laiseka
43:54 2008 valverde
44:10 2008 purito
44:13 2002 rumsas
44:17 2008 leipheimer
44:43 2002 escartin
44:44 2008 sastre
44:45 2002 Txema del Olmo
45:08 2008 gesink
Cobo 43:44
and consider those weather conditions in 2002 (nasty) to 2008 (nice).
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Better than Leipheimer, Sastre, and Valverde in 2008
…pretty comparable weather, if anything cooler (which probably helps going up).
Certainly the ride of dude’s life.
I think I'd rate Hautacam 2008 higher (for pure effort, this was clearly a bigger result)
simply based on how hard that stage was and the quality of the competition.
Shorter stage this year no?
plus Froome, Poels also faster than Sastre in 08 and almost as fast as Valverde, Jrod. Not sure times are a great comparison unless you have some trend like 2002(I mean…really?…One and a half minutes faster than Bert?)
Wasn't Froome sharing his data earlier in the race? Would like to see this power data...
by FrenchKheldar on Sep 4, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
08 was a 209k stage
All posts are at altitude. Acclimation may be necessary
by mr. rogers on Sep 4, 2011 3:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Stage 13. 1st day after a rest day
All posts are at altitude. Acclimation may be necessary
by mr. rogers on Sep 4, 2011 3:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Heras' time...
… is definitely, to borrow Simoni’s phrase, “extraterrestrial”.
I suppose that list as a whole isn’t quite as cringe-worthy as the list of best times on Alpe d’Huez
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpe_d%27Huez#Ascent_times ), but it is reminiscent of that.
MJB
by MJB on Sep 4, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Heras won that stage on a Triple.
He was probably in the peak of his career (age wise).
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
I’m not going to jump all the way to that conclusion.
I wasn’t there.
The testing at the time, which sucked, did not show anything.
Rather I shall choose the accept the fact he has an amazing race against his competitors; whom, at the time, all could be looked at in the same light.
Which is how I can accept the reality of that era.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Another unmentionable?
Gnomed tweets from Gilles Simon:
Leopard-Trek will no longer exist next season. As expected, Flavio Becca is associated with RadioShack.
In Leopard, 11 riders, including Brice Feillu, already know they should seek another team. In the team tomorrow.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
Wow. 1 year plan? Fuck.
All posts are at altitude. Acclimation may be necessary
by mr. rogers on Sep 4, 2011 4:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Bad gnomes!
The “In the team tomorrow” means that there’s an article in L’Equipe tomorrow.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 4, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
;)
that’s actually kind of a nice one ;)
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 4, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, I guess it was :)
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 4, 2011 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
What a twit
Backing the decapitating of Saxobank and then backing out one year later.
I hope Bruyneel is out.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
yup
"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind
Yep
seems like JB is moving away from LA and his baggage and moving towards Euro team. Makes sense to me.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
A question though
Does LA have some stake in this venture? I wonder is he is a part owner, hanging out in the background since he basically has a lifetime contract with Trek.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
adding that this doesn't surprise me if true
If something seems too good to be true, it usually is. If this all falls through, Bjarne will be laughing his ass off.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
I wonder if part of the background to this
isn’t Lance slowly backing out of the sport, willingly or as a result of the FDA investigation.
I think so, at least publicly
I wouldn’t put it past him to puling the strings behind the scenes.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
It may not be so easy for JB to dissociate himself from LA's baggage
If the rumors are true that the investigation has turned more toward dope distribution than dope taking, I would think JB would be a bigger target than LA. As powerful as LA’s position with Postal was, JB was the team director. Systematic team doping, and in particular, distribution of drugs to the team, would almost certainly implicate JB.
Then again, do we even know if the investigation is still on? It seems like a long time since there was any news of it.
by Susie Hartigan on Sep 4, 2011 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, they've been fucking up the Roger Clemens thing...
…and having their asses handed to them by a judge. A little busy there.
Of course it is not about dope taking
because that is not illegal. And the FDA has better things to do than investigate possible contract issues of some cyclist.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
by "dope taking" I was referring to
doping by Armstrong as some sort of fraud against the team sponsor(s), which was reported to be an earlier focus of the investigation. Then, around the time the FDA investigators traveled to Europe to meet with European authorities, there were reports that the focus had shifted to drug distribution.
Anyway, my point is that JB seems just as likely as Armstrong to be taken down by the FDA/international investigation.
by Susie Hartigan on Sep 5, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I should not have started with bratty “of course” perhaps rather “I can’t imagine how it ever was about dope taking”. I don’t think there have been any factual reports on the focus of the investigation, only speculation. My speculation is: the FDA would never start an investigation focussing on the use of doping by athletes.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
If this is true...
…it seriously underscores the need for the UCI to do something about requirements to form a team / get a top-level license. You could easily argue that LT’s money had a major contributing effect on the demise of Highroad too, though there are surely others.
I think there needs to be an organizational track record before you get a WT license. Teams should work their way up and prove that they are some degree of competent and stable, and demonstrate sponsor commitments that would allow them to exist for more than a year.
by Ed K on Sep 4, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Who was it who was arguing that the business model of pro cycling worked just fine?
(I know it ’tweren’t you Ed . . .)
The sport will have to change. How, I’m not sure.
Strong stable teams are a threat to the uci's power
All posts are at altitude. Acclimation may be necessary
by mr. rogers on Sep 4, 2011 5:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree so very much, and have rec'ed your comment.
by LittleOldLady on Sep 5, 2011 6:32 AM EDT up reply actions
This reminds me a lot
of what happened with major league baseball after Bart Giammatti died. Fay Vincent became commissioner for awhile and battled constantly against the team owners. Eventually he was replaced and for the first time a team owner was also commissioner. So there was no longer an outside authority to check the owners and guide the sport from a ‘best interests of the fans’ perspective.
It seems to me that so many of the issues that come up—the length of doping investigations, team licensing, whether Chris Horner should have been allowed to finish that TdF stage—are connected to the lack a genuine governing structure with authority. Instead, there are a host of competing governing structures and national federations. Makes it all very messy.
by bdr on Sep 5, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I know absolutely nothing about baseball, but agree that the lack of genuine governing is at the root of all this mess, and I am truly worried about the future of this sport, it is a mess in so many ways.
by LittleOldLady on Sep 5, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
So, essentially, RadioShack is cherry-picking Leopard?
When this was first rumored, it sounded to me as if JB was going to take the reins at LT and bring a few RS riders with him.
Simon’s report makes it sound as though RS is the team that stays intact, whatever sponsor names grace the jersey, and JB/RS will be cherry-picking the Schlecks, Spartacus, and a few others from LT.
MJB
by MJB on Sep 4, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Danish papers speculate that a merger was not possible because of too many riders under contract.
The solution was to fold the Leopards and transfer chosen riders to RSH, when a team folds the contracts are no longer valid and riders free to transfer to other teams
by LittleOldLady on Sep 5, 2011 6:37 AM EDT up reply actions
That might explain Leipheimer's maneuvering
If RS is folding, then RS contracts are cancelled and LL is a free agent.
If LT is folding, then Omega needs to buy out LL’s contract with RS.
Until the RS-LT deal is official, LL isn’t moving.
MJB
by MJB on Sep 5, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
But as I understand it LL is free to sign with a new team, his contract with RS ends this year.
But it could be that he is still waiting for something official regarding RS-LT just out of courtesy to his old team, he strikes me (apart from all the doping-LA stuff) as an old-fashioned guy who would want to appear to do the right thing.
by LittleOldLady on Sep 5, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
an old-fashioned guy who shafted his team-leader in the 01 Vuelta
and was summarily shown the door by Talwnd/USPostal
then stank things up for Rabobank until signing for Gerolsteiner???
Sorry - went looking for the link
and can’t find it. I was sure Lefevre confirmed it but now I think I must be delusional. That could be good because I am not at all sure its a good idea for Levi, pretty good deal for QS though.
No worries
Transfer season is not only stupid, but also confusing :)
I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.
?
so long ago, and I don’t have a memory of this. how did he shaft Heras?
I didn't know either, cut and paste per Wikipedia (so take w/grain of salt):
Leipheimer’s breakthrough came in the 2001 Vuelta a España, his first Grand Tour. He was riding well in support of team leader Roberto Heras. Going into the final stage, an individual time trial in Madrid, Leipheimer was fifth, trailing his leader, who was third, by about a minute. During that time trial, Leipheimer vaulted over two riders, including Heras, to finish third overall, the first American ever to reach the podium in the Vuelta.
This sounds like the Vuelta (08?) where Leipheimer was riding support for Contador and rode the final TT so well that Contador had to be wondering about the whole “support” thing.
maybe we just know more now...
about the types of riders they are. LL more diesel, often has had a bad day or two during three week races when he can’t keep up with the climby types… But it seems like Chechu was there for Heras on those stages.
Heras really lost his place on his TT times, imo (I just went back and skimmed cyclingnews’s summaries). And of course now I realize why I don’t remember a number of stages of this Vuelta — was working in a position with a lot of travel then and 9/11 happened in the middle of it.
And Postal had already decided that they didn't need another GC contender on the team.
So Levi was job hunting.
There are all these rumors, so there has to be something to it." - Jakob Fulgsang
Oh god, Fab to RadioShack
that’s the only thing that could make this transfer season more of a disaster than it already is
I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.
Bet he wishes he went to bmc last year....
All posts are at altitude. Acclimation may be necessary
by mr. rogers on Sep 4, 2011 6:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think Sep’s contract with Darth Vaughters is 2+ years.
Then, he’ll likely be off to the Quick Pharm for a 2-3+ year contract.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Boo!
Anyway, he said he wanted to broaden his horizons, so we’ll see.
Any dumb f#*k who looked at Garmin’s roster could figure that out, it wasn’t exactly rocket-science. Hell, it wasn’t even lutefisk-science.
by Chris Fontecchio on Sep 6, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Dare I dream of 2 French teams in WT? Woot !!
by FrenchKheldar on Sep 4, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The article
can be read here. Wegmann, Vigano, Mortensen, Pedersen, Pires. Rohregger, Stamsnijder and Lund are also named, beside Feillu.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 5, 2011 4:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Same journalist says
it will be official later tonight
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 5, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Re-watched that 2008 Hautacam stage pre-Angliru this morning...
Those 2 were having a complete laugh at the rest of the peloton that day! They put 30+ seconds into Frank in the last 2km and over 2 minutes to the group of Evans, Menchov, Sastre etc. who weren’t going slow and even attacked each other multiple times…..
Had to enjoy the part where Cobo was alone and Piepoli attacked Frank proceeding to blow passed Cobo and then halting his momentum to motion to Cobo to get on his wheel because it is easier there… That makes me chuckle every time!
Needless to say I regretted watching the 2008 stage during today’s stage because as much as I try to avoid thinking about it during a race I couldn’t help feeling Cobo was having a laugh today as well. Though I do recognise the fact that he clearly chose a better gear ratio than the others and might just be at the top of his peak, but still had a bad feeling.
'I dropped my torch in the cave of pain ... It's pretty dark in here.'
2008 gives great context to today.
Who was doing the ass kicking?
Who rode today? Menchov & Sastre are both older and on the same team as Cobo.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Ok. As unfair as it might sound
For me, most of the stake-holders in pro cycling occupy a zone in my thoughts that I’ve carved out in case my kids ever get there, (and several of my students of the years have achieved this status):
that zone is the “look, I’d LIKE to trust that the words you say might correspond to feelings and behaviors that you might actually have and perform, but the evidence to the contrary is over-whelming. We’re gonna have to start re-building trust-worthiness since you have become so good at lying to me and to yourself.”
In practice that means quite a bit of assuming guilt until innocence is proven.
Yikes... check out Gilles Simon's latest comment
… from Twitter
Juan José Cobo leader de la Vuelta: un nuage noir dans le ciel du cyclisme. Qu’en pense Riccardo Ricco?
Translator thingy says…
Juan Jose Cobo leader of the Vuelta: a black cloud in the sky of cycling. Think of Riccardo Ricco
MJB
that's almost as good (or bad)
as the headline Sports Illustrated ran for the Oregon/LSU game last night: “Suspension Bowl”
THat would be "What does Ricco think about this?" for the 2nd part
by FrenchKheldar on Sep 4, 2011 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
"what would/must Ricco think of that?"
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Realistically speaking, how long it is take for complete blood testing?
No more then 24 hours? So why panic and speculate now? We will know the truth by the end of the rest day! ( of course I know, that it is doesn’t work that way, but why the hell not? Why the test result has to take weeks, instead of hours?)
"I love bike races warm up, warm down, cobbles mountains or flats."
perezbike
.
Passing drug test gives me little confidence
When you look at how many riders have gotten through the drug testing programs, a clean test result does nothing for me. If they want to take a few hrs or a few weeks, no matter. It is nice when you have a drug free race though… ignorance is bliss. Because we know, these guys are almost always ahead of the testers. It’s just dumbfucks like Ricco that mess it up for everyone else doing it right.
"It's a lovely thing, feeling that momentum. If you're lucky, it's also about grace." Tim Winton
Passing a drug test give me a certainty that he is not full of dope up to his helmet!
of course he could be on some new shit, but so could be half of the Peloton, as much as we know right now. Or he could be micro dozing, which in my opinion give you more Psychological advantage then real one.
"I love bike races warm up, warm down, cobbles mountains or flats."
perezbike
.
I'm worried about the "makes blood vessels grow" doping.
And I have to wonder if the first attempts at that were being tried a couple-three-four years back when there were several odd cases of blood vessel embolisms in legs. (Yes, I know it can happen to anyone, with the blood pressure involved, and the bent over posture for hours, and innate weaknesses, and all that. But I’m wondering if, when that story actually breaks, eventually, when there’s a test for that product, how far back the trail will lead.)
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
that's a general anxiety, not a Cobo-specific anxiety, to be clear.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
I know what you mean by general anxiety.
But best medicine against that anxiety is to know that they ( dopers, researchers, etc. ) will be always ahead of the testers, and nothing anybody can do about! And knowing that, lets just enjoy the moment without thinking and analyzing to deeply!
"I love bike races warm up, warm down, cobbles mountains or flats."
perezbike
.
That's the ticket! Love the way you think.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I love tread like this.
Like in old Soviet society, In public ( Live treads ) you have to say all " right thing" according to Party line. And in private ( Bottomfeeder tread like this one ) you can state your real opinion.
Fun, fun fun, especially on the rest day!
"I love bike races warm up, warm down, cobbles mountains or flats."
perezbike
.
by holmovka on Sep 5, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your experiences fascinate me...so hard to imagine.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Still very different from the east germany experience.
Supposedly so saturated with informants that informants ended up informing on other informants, family on family, and everything was tracked (within classrooms, workplaces, etc). Yes, there’s a lot of stupid, wasteful and ineffectual profiling going on these days in the US, but not to the point where I wonder about the neighbors, and they about me. And it still exists in many countries. My mother had an conversation with a local who wanted to practice his english during her “5 ’stans” trip. She incautiously asked about the government, and watched him get the “shoulder tap” and then disappear, white-faced. I’m going to guess he got something worse than questioning by the mall cops, and a 17 page writeup.
Not to excuse the misery of being “surveilled” at any level—I’m pretty sure I’m on the PA list that was exposed and roundly condemned a few months back—but it’s really experientially quite different.
Besides, Seahorse lives in the West coast open spaces of Australia. I doubt that central US mall surveillance is high on her list of experiences, either.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
It's not of course :) I live on the east coast of Oz and the Soviet's
‘methods’/modus operandi are well beyond my ken.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
oops. Thought you were by Ningaloo reef?
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
A continent away. Perhaps it's because of Tim Winton that you think that.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I compartmentalize pretty well
but have to vent from time to time.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
The reality is . . .
. . . the Vuelta has been geared away from being a warm up to the WC RR and all the actual Top Tour Contenders are on holiday.
Just in case you might have missed it – “. . . all the actual Top Tour Contenders are on holiday.”
Right now, Cobo is the best ‘B’ level climber in the race and there really is no others.
I don’t think he was in the Geox Giro Squad, so this could all come down to a pretty good climber with fewer hard racing days in his legs; and he actually targeted this Tour for his season.
Like any Spaniard capable of climbing stupid crazy shit would do.
Lastly, I suspect he can’t hold his current lead in the last TT.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Ooops, no TT.
Hmmm, then it will get interesting to see how SKY deals with this.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
No kidding, right?
Sad part is who can Sky look to for help?
Maybe even sadder: watching Sastre ride for Cobo.
And just because..
He scored 0! CQ points last year. That is an achievement btw!
Oh.. And being hypocrit but that number 3.. Can someone tell me why I should believe himk flying uphill?
Poor old Juan Jose Cobo
is in a situation where he cannot really win. This may be because he is more fan assisted than your average oven, but he is in an invidious position if he is not.
He has a solid pedigree as a climber, has won one week tours and climbing stages of GTs before, shown well in GTs. Has the (now somewhat tarnished) claim never to have failed a test – including during the TdFs in 07 and 08 when they were busting people. In his time he has even shlepped his way up a mountain top only to be beaten by a juiced up teammate in a two up sprint, and then done the walk of shame when his team left the race through (on the face of it) the actions of others not him.
Yet the team that employs him is the main “evidence” against believing in yesterdays riding exploits (allied with the length of time he has ridden for them). It is hard to look past the concern over the management of that team that is both justifed and justifiable.
But Sastre or Menchov doing what he did yesterday would probably have flown under this particular radar and they are from the same team. It is not totally beyond the realm of possibility that riders can compete for them clean – or whither Walker, Kessiakoff, Kiserlovski, Capecchi, Valls Ferri, Clarke and many others?
Menchov (and likely Sastre) have had more results in the interim while def. being tested up the wazoo.
In some sense, we know that if they were dirty now, they’d presumably have been “mildly” dirty all along, and we already know we can’t and don’t catch them at those levels of doping. Cobo, he’s more uneven, also been more off-radar as a result. Could be that outliers and discontinuities are exactly what naturally catch the human attention—that’s how our brains work. The “spotting tigers in the underbrush” argument. We don’t notice trees behaving like trees. We also don’t notice something in motion that stays in motion. But something that pops up or out or somehow changes how it functions? That, we do notice.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Viewed Cobo's palmare
The peformance wasn’t unprecedented. Factoring in the high stakes, support from the likes of Menchov and and the modest names which are in contention for the race now, and I don’t have a problem with this, more than the usual level for someone who had ridden on dodgy teams.
I thought this thread was going to be about the obvious doping that Froome has been doing.
His previous claim to fame is that he had Kenyan citizenship. I’m so disappointed that people don’t assume that English speaking riders dope as much or more than those, those other types….
"There exists today a schism between two cultures. The Anglo-Saxon culture and what I call the mafia-like culture of western Europe (sports.fr assumes this refers to Belgium, France, Italy, and Spain). This western European culture, in a certain way, I wouldn’t say that it condones doping, but it accepts certain practices. The Anglo-Saxon culture, which includes Holland, Germany, England and Denmark, functions in a totally different manner. I believe that it is important that the Anglo-Saxon vision must carry the day. If this is not the case, cycling is dead, " said McQuaid.
Oh yeah, now I remember. I need to get on board with Pat and align my assumptions according with his keen insights. It can be dangerous to wander too far away from light provided by his teachings.
Or maybe not. :p
There are all these rumors, so there has to be something to it." - Jakob Fulgsang
by flying dog on Sep 5, 2011 7:53 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Christ, haven't seen that quote before.
How utterly, utterly appalling.
wow got a link to the story that quote's from?
that’s insane. Good point about Froome too, in the sense that from the point of view of palmarès, his performance is more suspicious than Cobo’s.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 5, 2011 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
"McQuaid, the firefighter arsonist"
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 5, 2011 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
thanks
incredible how clownish/amateurish he sounds. The story puts it well though, qualifying his statements as “quasi-racist,” and saying that he’s “manifestly not the man to bring about veritable solutions.”
can’t believe how riled up this is making me, better have some more caffeine ;)
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 5, 2011 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions
agree...his last bit was seriously WTF:
I believe that it is important that the Anglo-Saxon vision must carry the day. If this is not the case, cycling is dead, " said McQuaid.
This guy shouldn’t be the head of any global organization.
Well, that's true on any number of levels.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Not that we don't trust TFH with url shorteners,
but just fyi, the link is to a google translated version of http://www.sports.fr/cmc/cyclisme/20072/mcquaid-le-pompier-pyromane_119662.html
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
I would never ever rickroll anyone
again
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 5, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll add another link (for lazy English speakers).
Cyclingweekly’ an English take
’;
There are all these rumors, so there has to be something to it." - Jakob Fulgsang
Wow. McQuaid is an a**se.
Anglo-Saxon culture – like British football, rugby and athletics. Or wow, like American NBA or athletics. Absolutely no doping there. Of course.
"These are my principles and if you don't like them....well I have others." Groucho Marx
Please
A good 50% of the doping talk on this site is about US Postal and it’s descendants.
I think English speaking riders get a better rep because their teams seem to value anti-doping more. Or at least playing lip service to it. Vs teams like Movistar lining up to sign Valverde.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
I think it would help a lot if we spoke these other languages and could base our judgments on a broader base of understanding and not the snippets we get from the English speaking press...
My original motivation was just to stir up some more non existent mud and remind folks that Cobo’s isn’t the only supercharged performance in this Vuelta. And when people look in the mirror they don’t want to see Pat McQuaid looking back at them, at least I don’t.
There are all these rumors, so there has to be something to it." - Jakob Fulgsang
thanks a lot, I'm going to have nightmares now
Pat McQuaid as Bob in a new Twin Peaks?
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Sep 5, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Aaaargh, that's scary!
Now I’m going to have nightmares too – Bob still scares me, I still don’t look in mirrors at night!
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 5, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is that this blog holds English-speaking teams, well one in particular, to just as a high a level of scrutiny as Italian and Spanish teams
McQuaid’s statement is asinine of course.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
Well
Cobo = ride of his life + super-shady team history
Froome = ride of his life
I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.
But McQuaid is calling Belgium mafia too.
Don’t you know what happens when you turn on one of your own?
There are all these rumors, so there has to be something to it." - Jakob Fulgsang
Bull Shit.
Froome has nothing in his record that would even suggest he could TT AND climb mountains remotely this well.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Froome has a rep as a good TT'er, not so much the resaults to back it up due to injury
2nd in GB TT 2010 and there are alot of decent TT’s in the UK, i…came in ahead of Thomas.
had injury problems in 2011 but has had some noticable “good” rides in mountain stages. Agree nothing to suggest the results so far in this tour but I’d say he’s shown ability that would suggest he could get result in the future, just seems to have come sooner rather than later.
Think he’s been helped in a way by injury early in the year so has have a clear running at training purely for the veulta whiles others are burnt out.
Change:
Name – Froome ~ Cobo
TT’s – . . .in the UK ~ Spain
The story seems about the same for the last few years.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
+1
sums the whole debate up in a nutshell.
Unlike many perhaps, am relatively happy to take Froome’s performance at face value. That may be homerism, a misguided belief in the internal controls of the team, or even that he is clean, and by extension can take Cobo’s performance at face value also.
There seems little point in having climbs like the Angliru, Mortirolo, Zoncolan etc in GTs sometimes, because any good performance on the slopes of such a mountain is immediately over-analysed and if any rider has the temerity to create any kind of gap from 30 seconds upwards – the first port of call is to assume the worse.
Ultrimately they dont help the GT that stages the climb, they just emboil the race in muck.
wonderfully exciting, though.
I find that if I can vent someplace, I can also enjoy the stage and rides at face value. So what if it involves some level of “suspension of disbelief”? It’s still a set of monster efforts.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
To me Cobo's form is a bit less surprising.
He’s always been a competent climber. With Froome, the combination of that TT plus the super strong mountain finishes while towing Wiggins… never seen anything approaching that from him.
But who knows… once you assume that the “real” climbers (JRod, Nibali, Scarponi, JVDB, et al.) were off form for various reasons, what you’ve got is second-tier climbers looking great compared to other second-tier climbers.
Start fast, finish fast, and hope you're fast enough-- Cadel Evans
Like I said above.
I don’t suspect Cobo because of the win. I suspect him because of how fresh and comfortable he looked winning.
"Oh man, it’s going to take days to kill all these people!"
True, that was a bit suspicious.
Though if he had something left in the tank, he ought to have used it. That’s not much of a margin he’s got…
Start fast, finish fast, and hope you're fast enough-- Cadel Evans
As has been pointed out,
the retarded are no more likely than the general population to be jerks, asswipes or bigots. I’d call it a “whole new level of McQuaided.”
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
by JFS_PGH on Sep 5, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
that quote may well belong in the neolithic era
but modify it slightly by replacing “Anglo-Saxon” with “Rest of Cycling” and cut the list of countries down to Spain and it has been repeated repeatedly by McQuaid and dozens and dozens of others in the last twelve months.
The only reason I'm not touching it directly is that I'd probably have to wade into something very distasteful
namely a death of a SA rider (ex teammate, no?) from a burst blood vessel that we have no reason to believe was caused by doping (but can be exacerbated by doping). I went so far as to hint about it before. I could also say that teams from smaller countries can have huge reasons to dope, and can be darn near off radar when it comes to testing. All of that is circumstantial. Along with some seeming resistance to team invites (I always assume that races do have a vague sense of which teams might prove embarrassing, and when certain up and coming teams don’t get invitations, I wonder if that’s a tip-off by way of the race organizers, that they suspect the team of being both filthy dirty and careless.)
Well, actually, several people have mentioned that if Cobo is superhuman “by the numbers,” then so, arguably, are the dynamic duo right behind. And then if you’re me, you draw an admittedly arbitrary line between that performance and Mollema, and say, “thank god he was going sideways.” Which is of course also no proof of anything.
Basically, if you want to call out anyone, it’s your job, not someone else’s. Because we are allowed to have personal favorites whom we don’t want to examine very closely.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
just to make sure our facts are right (and accepting we are free to draw from our own conclusions from them)
but didn’t that death follow surgery? so there are reasons to suspect it wasn’t doping?
I believe the serious problem was spontaneous,
the surgery under fairly desperate circumstances,
and the issue would have to do with blood vessel overgrowth / weakening (a chronic thing) not some single instance of doping-gone-wrong. And as before, I want to say that people all over have these sorts of malformations. You tend to hear about them when they’re in the brain, and pop there, and kill people. If this were not a highly speculative thread, I would not even bring up the possible connection, it being pure speculation that such a thing could be linked.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Wait: belgium, france, italy, spain; vs holland, (northern?) germany, england and denmark...
… is he actually saying “Catholic” (corrupt) vs “Protestant” (uncorrupt)?
Quick, where’s my Weber!?
More seriously: take him seriously. Although I’m not sure the facts support his theory, there’s nothing objectionable about his theory per se. It’s not racist, or appalling, or neolithic. It’s established to the point of a platitude that certain European countries have traditionally had a very different culture from others, and that the first lot (variously “Catholic” or “Southern”, usually) have traditionally had endemic corruption, while the second lot (variously “Protestant” or “Northern”) have not had endemic corruption.
The question of WHY Northern Europe has had such a different culture from Southern Europe has been the subject of much scholarly attention for over a century now, and there’s no clear answer. And of course it’s not known for certain that NE has lower levels of drug use from SE (it’s not fair, by the way, to bring in sports like football, as they have their own culture – you can compare NE football to SE football, or NE cycling to SE cycling, but NE football to SE cycling isn’t fair at all because of the differences in culture between the two sports), and you could argue that although Southern corruption would lead to more drug use, perhaps the good old Spirit of Capitalism (at least in anglo-saxon countries) would lead to increased drug use to compensate.
But whether it’s true or not is different from whether or not it’s appalling. You can’t just discount results from sociology, political theory, economics, psychology and so forth simply because you don’t like how they sound, and although McQuaid was probably speaking out of his arse, the basic point he’s making is one that’s very much in line with a lot of academic study.
Calling it racist is just lazy – culture is not race. Nobody said that, say, Italy was corrupt because they had darker skin than Englishmen. But the fact that Italy is more corrupt than England is indisputable – and it’s quite legitimate to ask what effect that corruption might, or might not, have on sporting behaviour.
So...Hoogerland
When he had that awful crash in the Tour, and his spandex got ripped off…
There were a few nice little bumps on his rear end. I heard someone (don’t recall whom) imply that this could be from injecting certain substances. Is that…accurate?
Schleckonds.
by dees ees en drama on Sep 5, 2011 1:46 PM EDT reply actions
Anyone who can tell injection sites from butt acne through ripped spandex and mud at 30 paces...
now, that’s a practiced eye. (I’m guessing that injections are unlikely to be done in a site prone to saddle sores.)
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
http://images2-telegraaf.nl/multimedia/archive/00868/Hoogerland_jpg_868434a.jpg (NSFLunch)
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
by tedvdw on Sep 5, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thoughts:
Ted, you’re a find it fast wizard.
That’s one spectacular bit of physique, even for a cyclist.
Those are indeed some odd bumps. And right where they would not be a risk for saddle sores, too.
To be fair, a bruise can come up as a big lump within minutes, long before turning dark, but that usually on top of bone (skull, shins, knees) not on top of muscle. Or those could be scars. Or he could have had bad boils in the past (they can leave some real peaks in flesh).
Solution: have them all ride in nothing but chamois-modified jock straps, sunscreen and body paint. That way we can all keep salaciously detailed track of surface detail, and increase employment for body painters.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
My skin actually lumps up rather dramatically, almost instantly, when pricked.
maybe that’s where the wire poked rather than scraped.
OK, think i have to stop looking at that picture now. (For the first real bottom in the bottomfeeding thread—and on-topic, no less—I wish I had a prize for Ted.)
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Mine can lump up pretty dramatically, too, so I can't see those bumps as necessarily suspicious.
Not saying they’re definitely not, but the guy went into a wire and wood fence, in a field with unknown vegetation. Lots of natural possibilities, including bug bites.
The perineum, the area between the scrotum and the anus, is simply the most delicate part of the body.--Tom Boonen
Nah. Look again. Closely.
(This shouldn’t be too hard for y’all)
Those are subcutaneous and they are between the welts/cuts raised by the barbed wire.
It’s possible they are veinous, like HIncapie’s calf-brain, but I’d bet money they were there before Hoogerland hit the fence.
cuts and welts are from scraping. Clear.
But as you free yourself, or when you stop sailing past and roll over onto, you can also get punctures, and not in the same place. They go deeper, bleed less, and could puff way more.
Any puncture that goes deep on me puffs like crazy. Not everything that gets under the skin is done intentionally.
I agree that the placement is either strategic, or else lucky. But if they’d been someplace really unlucky, that nobody would ever use for an injection, we would not be having this discussion. For that matter, vitamin shots were not illegal when he started riding, so even if they are injection points, I guess we’re left not knowing what it proves. Except that young guys coming up now should end up unmarred and unscarred.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
HIncapie’s calf-brain is a great example of . . .
. . . nobody ever questioning him for his amazing riding, or strange physical issues.
Seriously, everyone here was expecting Hincapie to be climbing with the top Tour Riders in the ToCo?
Really?
It wasn’t odd that he’d be able to hold tempo with kick ass climbers where there is no oxygen?
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
Didn't strike me as that unusual.
Tour de France to Tour of Utah to tour of CO is about as perfectly spaced a lead in as you’d want, RE riding at altitude. Esp. if he got to UT a little early (I don’t know if this is the case, but in terms of natural, altitude-based blood boosting, it would have been ideal). And his big win was a charge up a short steep (anaerobic-style) in truly foul weather, after a cold, wet and screaming descent (bike handling skills, experience) after an ascent where a break got caught, itself after a looong false flat, which was preceeded by odd shit like dirt roads and cattleguards (bike handling skills, experience) as well as an early climb. The climbs were b/c of the altitude more than the gradient, so size is much less of an issue than appropriate altitude conditioning. Which, sure, it can be juiced. But given the spacing of the prior rides, he’d have been naturally pumping a high ’crit.
As to varicose veins, he’s had them a long time, they tend to be genetic, and in and of themselves, they don’t help at all to move blood around (rather the opposite).
Can I say for sure that a product that encourages arterial growth or capillary growth would not also cause surface vein growth? No, can’t say that. But I can say that I’m pretty sure his veins were showing years before the molecule now being discussed as a potential new wave doping product was fully discovered / described. So I’m not tending to see that particular smoking gun.
Anyway, the Americas (N. & S.) riders were laying it all on the line in CO, and they knew what the altitude was going to be like. Some of the Euro riders were there more for the experience and training (not that they didn’t ride hard, but they were not going to put themselves as deep in the red for a win in the US). So the question becomes, is Hincapie normally a competitor in US races near the level of Levi (and now Tejay)? Well, yeah, he is.
Those were killer climbs, but largely because of the altitude, not the steepness. If you’re acclimated to the altitude, and if you pre-shock your system by demanding performance at altitude 2 weeks (and 4 weeks) before, why wouldn’t you be competitive?
None of this means he doesn’t dope, but I’m not seeing big old red flags.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
To be clear, I don’t really have any opinion on Big George.
I just chose to throw into the conversation to people up thread that if you’re gonna look at Hoogerland’s ass after he crashed and come to a conclusion the has doped in the past, then are others you might as well start making unfounded assumptions about.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
What IS Hincapie's calf-brain?
I am intrigued! I am assuming it’s not what he had for supper, or a reference to his intelligence?
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 6, 2011 7:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Braaaaains, braaaaains
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Sep 6, 2011 7:05 AM EDT up reply actions
aaaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!
That is horrible!
Thanks!
by Sarah Connolly on Sep 6, 2011 7:22 AM EDT up reply actions
but image google "varicose veins" (or better, take my word for it)
And you’ll see similarly extreme veins on much doughier legs (where they hunker down a bit less obviously). So unless you think people dope for walking around the mall, there’s no pressing reason to think that Hinc’s veins are something other than basic varicose veins.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
No thank you, I'll refrain
and I never believed that was a proof of doping
I am ready to hug the world - Tony Martin.
Well I have no idea
which is why I ask.
Schleckonds.
by dees ees en drama on Sep 5, 2011 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
J-F Bernard (L’Equipe): “Cobo’s performance is a bit tough to believe”
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
"I thought I was seeing Pantani, again, on Alpe d'Huez (Durkeebridge)"
On Angliru, nobody could follow him. Or [rather], Pantani could have. Like a Contador at the top of his form. […] He has a very strong team around him: Menchov, Sastre, De la Fuente […]
No literal allegation, but everything but.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Daniel Benson inventing words:
. . . It paved the way for Cobo, who eased through the remnants of the leading group as if they were standing still. It was also Riis-esque, with Wiggins only able to mount a valiant challenge for few hundred meters.
There are all these rumors, so there has to be something to it." - Jakob Fulgsang
I. for one, am thankful for this thread.
A wise man once said, “There are no surprises in cycling”. There are a number of performances in this GT that do, in fact, make me wonder when the other shoes is going to drop. I wish I had more faith in the Spanish Cycling Federation to detect and then actually do something about enhanced performances. . .
In the spirit of egalitarianism
I’m ready to believe in the intrinsic ineffectualness, lack of independent resources, or even the potential bribeability of pretty much any national cycling federation when it comes to cracking down on doping.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
No federation 'detects' doping . . .
. . . they only rule on the data from the test; along with other variables.
The labs are totally independent from all the various National and Professional governing bodies.
What would Deming do? (+8:00 GMT)
IMO
it’s much much easier to look at Cobo’s performance as natural after today’s stage. Maybe I’m just analyzing it with my heart, but I really don’t see any more suspicion than I would with other riders.
Schleckonds.
by dees ees en drama on Sep 7, 2011 11:45 AM EDT reply actions
And that's why this is the omerta-free "talk about it," thread,
not the “mandatory crucifiction” thread. Both Cobo and Froome at least had the grace to look like they were going to gasp till they puked after today’s stage. Not that it proves anything.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
We need next 2012 or 2013's doping tests.
But until that year rolls round, with retroactive testing of samples, we’ll have to make do, and hope for not-too-many asterisks and re-writes.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Frinking mentioned the subject in 2010
in the wrong thread with a dutch link. but I guess Heeswijk is (borderline) in the news again. With apologies for polluting the rampant speculation thread with something slightly heavier.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
Ja, that broke a while ago in the Dutch press
(not saying you should have noticed, of course). I stopped reading the Velocast blog after “Few of us knew the name Max van Heeswijk until yesterday.”
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
Pieter probably saw it (an spared me).
I did a quick search here and didn’t find a link except for Frinking’s live thread “oopsie” so rather than have it break here, randomly, in some other thread, I stuck it in.
"BECAUSE THERE’S NO F*CKING SPRINTS." -Cavendish (asterisk added)
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