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Around SBN: Ryder Hesjedal Wins Giro d'Italia

Be patient people….. It was delayed, again!
Did you ever cry and laugh at the same time?

5 months ago Vk_tiny holmovka 41 comments 0 recs  | 

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I think it is time to come up with the name of an unit to measure a ridiculousness of any situation.

How is Bertscase sounds? With 1 Bertscase being slightly ridicules, just enough to rise an eyebrows. And 10 Bertscases being so ridicules, to cause uncontrollable laughter. :)

" I like that Cav got his wins…"
JJY 10/20/11


.

by holmovka on Jan 11, 2012 9:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh, No you don’t!

I was first! I have a naming rights! If you not agree with me, I fully prepared to take this case to Court, and then to another one and to appeal court after that, till ridiculousness of it all will rich 10 Bertscases! :)

" I like that Cav got his wins…"
JJY 10/20/11


.

by holmovka on Jan 11, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you read the small print when you signed up?

in particular the bit about all complaints being settled at a special court convened in Curacao during dolphin week, all expenses to be met by the complainant. The loser to duke it out with skinny Schleck over three rounds with pillows on the rolly bar thing.

by Monty. on Jan 11, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

This

I wanna see.

Luxembourg is very close to Belgium--Frank Schleck

by majope on Jan 11, 2012 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I would really love it!

Curacao and dolphins and especially to see you pillow fighting with Andy and Frank!
:)

" I like that Cav got his wins…"
JJY 10/20/11


.

by holmovka on Jan 11, 2012 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

unbelievable

the world is being paralysed by fucking lawyers. which reminds me of an oldie but goldie. what do you call 500 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? a start…………..

by Maratsafin on Jan 11, 2012 9:19 AM EST reply actions  

Because drowning people is fucking hilarious

"I’m pretty disappointed, but if this is what people want to see, a race decided on a downhill," Andy Schleck said. "I don’t think that. A finish like this should not be allowed."

by jsallee00 on Jan 11, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

No it isn't

Drowning lawyers, on the other hand …

"Beer helps." -- Ant1.

by tedvdw on Jan 11, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand that fish lawyers have gills and so are immune to drowning, if not sea lions.

That right Chris?

But why did New Jersey get so many toxic waste dumps while Washington DC wound up with so many lawyers?

by ursula on Jan 11, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

you're answering your own jokes?

"Wizard's first rule. People are stupid. They will believe anything they want to be true or fear to be true." -- Terry Goodkind

by umwolverine on Jan 11, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

That might've been someone else in the room

"I’m pretty disappointed, but if this is what people want to see, a race decided on a downhill," Andy Schleck said. "I don’t think that. A finish like this should not be allowed."

by jsallee00 on Jan 12, 2012 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

alas

in all humour, someone or something is a victim. in the bertie case I think it’s us, the cycling fans.

by Maratsafin on Jan 12, 2012 8:31 AM EST up reply actions  

I think the sentence I like is

“a ruling that was promised this week could be delayed at least until next week or perhaps even longer.”

Somehow I’m thinking about placing my chips on “even longer”…

by Le Comte on Jan 11, 2012 10:06 AM EST reply actions  

will andy never get his tour win?

"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."

by ant1 on Jan 11, 2012 10:12 AM EST reply actions  

in 2050

which I believe is 10 Bertscases from now…according to holms…

by JustJoshinYa on Jan 11, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

By the phrase alone, it's tough to say

although you have fans on both sides insisting that they know what it means.

To me, it’s face value…. they want this to be the final step of the process. No more drawing it out.

However, when confronted with two more pieces of info:
1. Ashenden was blocked by CAS to testify against AC and
2. WADA lawyers were close to quitting the case over “fairness”

I agree with you, it certainly does lean the mind one way doesn’t it?

Me, I just want a ruling so that I can move on and live with it, and I don’t much care which ruling it is. In my mind there is a big difference between proving in court you were “clean” in one violation vs the likelihood that any one rider in the pro peloton is 100%, pure as the driven snow “clean”. I stopped being that naive years ago.

by LawrenceS on Jan 11, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I haven't read a whole lot about the possible testimonies

but from that article it sounds as if Ashendon wasn’t going to address any facts in the case; his testimony would have been rather speculative (testifying about a lab test not yet accepted as valid is still speculation, isn’t it? Doesn’t even qualify as circumstantial evidence?) And all my experience from watching “Law and Order” tells me that could be a problem and a reason to not permit it, correct?

I do agree, that I will be content with whatever ruling.

by uninformed consent on Jan 11, 2012 1:04 PM EST reply actions  

In fairness

all the Contador defense is built on another piece of speculative evidence, that the clen originated from some apparently contaminated piece of mystery meat who ended up on his plate in some peculiar roundabout way.

by Jens on Jan 11, 2012 3:07 PM EST up reply actions  

the defence is lightweight in itself

because the last published figures from the EU showed only less than 10 positive cases out of 1000’s of tests – none in spain. so beyond reasonable doubt? http://www.moniqa.org/webfm_send/568 etc

by Maratsafin on Jan 12, 2012 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

therein lies the whole case - speculative on all sides

the only thing everybody seems to accept is that Contador didn’t deliberately ingest Clenbuterol during the time between the two urine tests that were negative then positive – what he is being charged with.

Nobody can prove he had a blood transfusion, nobody can prove he didn’t. Nobody can prove it was the meat, nobody can prove it wasn’t. Nobody has to either. 3 wise men will now decide what they think is the most likely scenario from all the circumstantial evidence and apply the rules accordingly.

by andrewp on Jan 12, 2012 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

The thing is,

so far as people have explained it to me in the past, “the most likely scenario” is irrelevent. As I’ve had it explained to me, there’s a burden of proof in the rules, and it rests with the defendent – he’s guilty unless proven innocent.

Whether that itself is fair is another question, and I guess he can take it to the ECHR if he wants, but if they follow the existing rules, it’s not about deciding whether or not he cheated intentionally, it’s about whether he can show that he didn’t. Which he can’t.

Did he have the drug in him? Yes.
Is he allowed to have the drug in him? No, not in any amount.
Can he show that any sort of exemption or exception or allowance under the rules applies, should apply, or should be applied? No.
Therefore he should be banned, by the rules.

What he instead seems to be trying to show is that if you’ve got enough money you shouldn’t have to abide by any rules, and that rules are only for the normal people to follow.

by Wastrel on Jan 12, 2012 7:58 PM EST reply actions  

just hypothetically,

if you didn’t have a blood transfusion nor knowingly ever ingest clenbuterol, and you had a lot of money for lawyers, and you were about to be banned from racing, would you just decide to lie down and accept the rules because those are the rules?

A second point is that he is playing by the rules. He has the right to hire lawyers and contest these results. And them’s the rules.

by yeehoo on Jan 13, 2012 2:41 AM EST up reply actions  

"the most likely scenario" is exactly Contador's challenge

“Strict liability” gets him in trouble (and I would add rightly so)
To excape or reduce any sanction under that stict liability “he first needs to establish how the prohibited substance entered his system” according to a balance of probability test. “Prove” in a way is a bad way to use, as there is none on any side. As such the Tribunal is asked to make a finding on fact on the issue as follows:

In view of these provisions, it is the Panel’s understanding that, in case it is offered several alternative explanations for the ingestion of the prohibited substance, but it is satisfied that one of them is more likely than not to have occurred, the Player has met the required standard of proof regarding the means of ingestion of the prohibited substance. In that case, it remains irrelevant that there may also be other possibilities of ingestion, as long as they are considered by the Panel to be less likely to have occurred. In other words, for the Panel to be satisfied that a means of ingestion is demonstrated on a balance of probability simply means, in percentage terms, that it is satisfied that there is a 51% chance of it having occurred. The Player thus only needs to show that one specific way of ingestion is marginally more likely than not to have occurred. (Gasquet para 5.9 p22)

You cannot simply state “I didn’t take it” or posit it must have been the meat (see Onyia para 87, p19) Hence all the gubbins on contamination, animal testing stats, blood passport analysis, plasticizers etc and the mountains of testimony and evidence the panel will wade through

It is an uphill challenge for Contador, an unlikely but achievable target. If he can convince three members of a CAS panel to decide that the beef defence “is more likely than not” to have occurred then he will have “established” how it came into his system. That will deemed to be be “proof”.

It’s not about money (although that does undoubtedly help pay for all the time and effort being put into his defence), or Baysian inference, or biased panel members – it all turns on a seemingly simple question. Contador says it was the beef, is his explanation that it was thus so convincing to the panel that it outweighs the other possible explanations? If the panel says yes or no to this, they will explain in detail why.

(The Gasquet case is the nearest recent comparison and well worth a read. It shows an equally unlikely proposition – cocaine absorption from a kiss – and details the evidence submitted and why the panel chose to ignore all other possible reasons for it being there and accept the tennis players assertion)

by andrewp on Jan 13, 2012 3:26 AM EST up reply actions  

tennis is bent

nobody wants to believe it but agassi’s book blew the lid off. Gasquet’s case was a complete farce but see Malisse, Wickmayer, Korda etc etc etc

by Maratsafin on Jan 13, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

by that remark

I assume you mean that the fact the VDT decisions that suspended Malisse and Wickmayer, and the ITF ratified, that are now being challenged by the athletes is by extension all the fault of the ITF and nothing to do with athletes being disgruntled, and that the ITF went to a London court to ensure Korda had to go to CAS etc etc etc and the decisions that suspended Hingis for two years (now quoted by CAS decision – see Gibbs para 11.34, p21) and many others are all irrelevant. Blah blah blah.
The assertion a sport may have an inherent PED problem doesn’t affect the relevant case law. That Gasquet was a tennis player and that tennis may be “bent” doesn’t invalidate the relevant process.

Have worked in horseracing for many many years. Dick Francis and others have got very rich writing novels with the premise there is skullduggery and cheating aplenty. The day to day reality is a lot more mundane and its all a lot more honest than people may presume. None of that remark, oir many others could make, changes the case law either.

by andrewp on Jan 13, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I mean

that the WTA and ATP have gone out their way to ensure that big name players never show a positive test. The ITF’s own testing list caused as much hassle than it solved (because of the huge number of missed tests) they no longer publish the figures.

But the Agassi case is all you need to know. He was a big name, still a business asset albeit struggling at the time. They buried his test despite it being a criminal offence.

Hingis affair is a joke. She gets an A and B positive test, retires before the WTA/ITF ruling, then the day after the ban expires announces the end of her retirement. Because she dogded the ban all her endorsements etc carried on etc. Everyone, I mean, everyone knows she is a smart operator and a big party girl. But banning her on the authorities terms? Oh no let’s not go to the trouble.

Anyway this is a cycling forum and I could go on and on about PED in the sport but despite having total faith in them, those comments would undoubtably be libelous.

by Maratsafin on Jan 14, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions  

But I'll also take the occasion to reiterate something I said eight months ago

I hope we never have to hear the phrase “2011 Giro d’Italia champion Michele Scarponi”

by Aly Edge on Jan 13, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

So you reckon

we should sneak cocaine into the podium girls’ lippie?

by Monty. on Jan 14, 2012 5:53 AM EST up reply actions  

????????????????????????????????????

No..?

My point is that Bertie’s Giro was almost certainly squeaky clean, and it was still one of the most ridiculously dominant Grand Tour performance any of us have ever seen. To strip him of that championship would be a travesty.

by Aly Edge on Jan 14, 2012 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

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