I humbly bow to my new overlords..check out number 1
Photocred: pulled from Ciclismo-Espresso.com
5 months ago
spokejunky
73 comments
0 recs |
Comments
But funnily enough Roxanne Knetemann's never done that much on the road
a good solid domestique sort of sums her up.
Looks like
she was road up until 2005, then all track. Impressive 20 minute numbers for a track specialist.
I don't understand those numbers
During the test they have to push a higher wattage every x minutes (usually 50 watt higher per 4 minutes), so what is this watt/kg number?
- average wattage/kg during the entire test?
- the w/kg at the end of the test (when she went all out?) If she weighs 60 kg, that would mean she pushed 400 watts at the end of the test.
I assume there's a standard sort of test that Rabo have done on the whole team
but given that most top women riders are really really weeny, probably pushing at the 50 kg mark at their lardiest, you’re probably looking at a total power output of 300 watts tops.
that's why I'm asking
the numbers mean nothing if you don’t know how long they can maintain that effort.
This is the maximum
Apparently, like Adrie van Diemen explains (well, says) in the NOS video, they use a stepless protocol. The resistance is increased continually instead of in 50 W (or so) steps every x minutes. The quoted number is the highest wattage reached divided by rider weight (again from the video: 53 kg for Vos). He didn’t mention the rate of change nor the starting wattage. Both of those could well be different for different types of riders (M/W, track/road).
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
from her twitter:
Protocol: Start 4min. 2x gewicht in W en dan elke 3min. +1/2 gewicht in W
here
I think that’s not the same protocol the men use (they do 4 minute steps usually). But I still don’t understand how that w/kg is calculated
When I compare that number to the Allen/Coggan profile chart I think it must be her w/kg at FTP. They probably combine that VO2max-test with some sort of FTP-test.
Her VO2max was a bit over 72 btw. That’s really high, she must have a natural talent for endurance sports. Surprising innit?
No, from several sources incl. her twitter: it's the maximum reached wattage divided by weight
but that did make me wonder how they determine the end of the test: any drop off = stop?
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
You're completely dead at the end of a VO2 max test, your body decides when it's done
But 300 (or even 400) seems so low for the Eddy Merckx of female cycling.
I know how it feels
but I wondered about the actual, official protocol. Any drop-off in wattage is not useful because of small variations in output. In my experience, the drop-off can be quite gradual: just not making the prescribed wattage but persevering, minus 10, minus 15 W, etc.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
Seems high enough at the end of a ~30 minute test
especially for her weight, of course.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
I'm not sure how that is low... in fact... it seems the opposite
She’s off the Men’s chart, and has a full 1W/kg over the next person typed on the list.
That’s insane… if fact, I would say it’s unbelievable, but I’m going to assume there is something here I don’t know about the test.
But if she’s doing that at the end of 30minutes… she should be racing with the men ( and in fact, still beating most of them)
To spokejunky:
Thanks for posting but you should really mention the source of this image, and any image you post, even if you just find it somewhere on Twitter.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
Vos Wikipedia page is running out of space.
And now another number ffs.
Can't possibly be W/Kg at Threshold
Not even TDF winners can reach 6.63 w/kg for 20-60 minutes. Be helpful to know the details of the test, but it’s clear she’s a badass, right?
I NEED MOAR MUD
I doubt that we needed something as quaint as a number
to identify her as a badass…
There’s this great image out there on the interwebs of her finishing 2nd at the Worlds RR for the 5th consecutive time. The look on her face says all you need to know about her. The sheer frustration of not winning is nothing short of awesome. This is someone who does not like, nor is used to finishing anywhere other than at the front of races.
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
until PFP gets a few more years worth of watts in her legs.
but seriously, Vos is something else.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
So if Vos competed in the TdF,
she’d be a Head of State?
6.6 W/kg is what Chris Anke Sorensen did for ten minutes on the Tourmalet in 2010 to winnow out the chaff, leaving only the big players (he then exploded). Following him was a little easier – Chris Horner only had to put out 6.4 to stay with the group. Then the pace-makers dropped out and Andy Schleck attacked, followed by Contador – Horner couldn’t go with them, but he dropped down to 5.4, and eventually finished the climb less than two minutes behind the Dynamic Duo.
So are we saying Vos is on track for a top ten GC finish in the Tour de France?
More importantly, perhaps, she’s 20% better than the runner-up… that’s quite a lot, to say the least. That’s… surprising.
On the other hand, it shows how… extraterrestrial HWMNBN really was. Because he managed to put out Vos’ maximum W/kg too… for 38 minutes, on average, up the Alpe.
No
big difference between this maximum, a slowly increasing ‘test to the death’ in 30 minutes where really only the last ~12 minutes are really heavy, and putting out those same numbers routinely in an hour long climb at the end of a 200 km road stage.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
No use in comparing women to men (doesn't work in any physical sport)
You can’t really compare the numbers you sum up either. You have to see what happened before that climb, CAS had been on his bike for several hours, same for Lance, while this test from Vos was probably the only effort she did that day.
Impossible to make the comparison IMO.
Robert Gesink scores slightly more than 7 W/kg in that test. That's a comparison for you.
Depends on whether the protocol is the same, of course, but I think at least the time for each step (3 minutes) is the same.
by blackswangreen on Jan 12, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure how you can say that.
You linked an Allen/Coggan Profile Chart which has the exact comparison. What is standard W/kg in FT 30 minute stepped test for Men and for Women.
Full Threshold Pro for women is 5.69 W/kg (pretty much every other girl on that list)
Full Threshold Pro for men is 6.40 W/kg which is even less than what Vos performed. As I said earlier… either I’m misunderstanding something, or that seems a little unbelievable. Especially if Gesink is slightly more than 7W/kg.
"Full" Threshold?
I only know of the term Functional Threshold. But as noted before: this number was not FT but maximum power. (After about 30’ of linearly increasing wattage.)
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
and men are men, women are women
If you want to compare, then compare men to men and women to women. Women will never run as fast as men, jump as high/far…. simply they’re built differently. Therefore there’s no use in that kind of comparisons IMO.
As for these numbers, I think they use a different protocol for men and women, perhaps one of the twitter users should ask Gesink and/or Vos.
Here Bauke Mollema explains the test they do. It’s from 3 years ago, but I assume it’s still the same. Sounds pretty similar to what Vosje did.
by blackswangreen on Jan 12, 2012 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
I think we're talking about two different things here.
and it doesn’t help I got my terms wrong (sorry)
The point is, W/kg is supposed to be used for comparing across different body types and potentially gender. If they’re using the same test, the results should apply. Certainly J-Rod is going to have lower results that Fabian. I know that if I’m climbing a mountain at 4.2 W/kg and someone else is at 5.0 W/kg (it doesn’t matter if they are a guy or girl, they’re going to kick my ass)
My point was that whether this is VO2 max or ramp test (of which generally 75% of your value is FTP) you can still see compelling results.
That paper says "VO2 max – so that’s (in my world) a 20min or hour long test that you get FTP from.
If it’s a ramp test… then multiply by .75% for FTP.
Either way…. what’s important to me is that Miss. Vos is closer to the Boys than the Girls and has a 17% performance increase over the next name, and likely more depending on where you draw your baseline.
That’s crazy. That one person can be a full 1 W/kg stronger than the strongest next in whatever test that was. When the other 7 are separated by measure of 1-4%
that should say
“J-Rod is going to have lower power results than Fabian” but may (likely) have a slightly higher W/kg.
Sorry, .... man, off day.
That’s not what I meant either.
The wVO2 max test we do is 6 minutes and is about 120% FTP, what you CAN get FTP from (the 20min X .9??? or 1 hour test)
The FTP test is usually 1 hour.
Yeah, when I test my FTP it's 20min power divided by 1.05
Coggan and Allen (THE book on power) says that’s the right way to use 20min power to get FTP
I NEED MOAR MUD
by Douglas Ansel on Jan 13, 2012 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
maybe she lied about her weight?
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
mos def
(assuming you’re asking if i’m going) how about you?
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
mr rogers and i have ridden the course a couple times in the past month
they’ve been resurfacing the roads at the top. right now it’s a bit of a pain. unpacked big gravel and mud. the climbs and descents are all good though.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
Yessir
I registered in December. Definitely looking forward to it and hooking up with you all when I get there.
have you ridden the course before?
and where are you coming from?
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
here’s a gps of it if you haven’t seen it yet, starting and ending a mile or so from the winery.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
it's not really
the first climb is pretty tough. lots of sections above 20%, but it’s not all that long. the second one’s not that steep, but it’s longer, and comes after the first. the downhills are pretty fun. nothing technical.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
I'm sure the ramp test is somehow part of the VO2max test
because yeah, the heading is “VO2max Test”. But what is listed is NOT VO2max, it is “Max vermogen” = maximum power, in W/kg. Vos explained the procedure herself, as Broerie said above: https://twitter.com/marianne_vos/status/155211947497897984
Anyway, Pooley isn’t listed (obviously) but I’m sure she would be close to Vos because they were about equally strong on the climbs in the Giro and Pooley was supposedly not on top form there because of an earlier bone fracture.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
It's not compared the same for gender.
Here’s a fairly common rating chart for results of a 20 minute FTP test:
Fitness Level w/kg Male (20 minute numbers) w/kg Female (20 minute numbers)
1 0-2 0-1.5
2 2.01-2.45 1.51-2.08
3 2.46-2.8 2.09-2.4
4 2.81-3.46 2.41-2.94
5 3.47-3.8 2.95-3.23
6 3.81-4.25 3.24-3.62
7 4.26-4.82 3.62-4.1
8 4.83-5.27 4.11-4.48
9 5.28-5.75 4.49-4.86
10 5.75+ 4.87+
We're talking power at VoMax, which is substantially higher than threshold
For example, I can put out 4.4-4.5w/kg at threshold but 5.3-5.4w/kg at VoMax. So, Vos can likely hold that effort for 5-8min, tops. If she were to go over one of the bergs in LBL full gas, that’s what she could probably do, numbers-wise.
I NEED MOAR MUD
by Douglas Ansel on Jan 12, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
VO2max?
What power at VO2max do you mean, her “6.63 maxW/kg” figure? I don’t think so. That is just the the maximum power (divided by weight) she attained at the end of the step test. She also reported a VO2max (72.8 ml/kg/min) but that is a different ranking, one we (I) never saw.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
Yeah
but read one line further: “Max. vermogen (W/kg)” = Max. power (W/kg). That is not VO2max. And Vos explains the test right here: “Protocol: Start 4min. 2x gewicht in W en dan elke 3min. +1/2 gewicht in W” = Protocol: start at twice your kilogram-weight in watts, do that for 4 minutes, then add half your kilogram-weight in watts every 3 minutes.
A variation on the Conconi test.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
OK, then it's a ramp test.
But I have a hard time believing that because the other girls are too low.
Take the lovely P-F-P… she’s 47kg.
Let’s even say she got fat over Christmas and weighs 50 today.
That’s 50*5.5= 275 Watts ramp test * .75 = 206.25W /50kg = 4.125W/kg FTP
I don’t believe that she’s “Cat1/Cat2” level. And if she’s actually the svelte 47kg she appears to be… than it’s 4.125W/kg @ 258.5 Watts.
Now you make me want to do a ramp test and see how it compares to what I know about my body
Especially since it’s what they seem to use to test the pros a lot. Good old Conconi method.
I NEED MOAR MUD
by Douglas Ansel on Jan 13, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
you sure you want to make quite that broad a statement?
disagree. (And yes, the sport’s ranking system is intentionally gender blind).
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
Long distance open water swimming and racing 100m or 500m in a pool...
really two different sports. I didn’t say that men and women are the same, you’ll notice. Just that there are, in fact, a few serious sporting situations where men and women do compete directly, with no distinctions made for gender. It so happens that flotation and insulation and nutrient storage play a significant role when swimming long distances in cold water, which happens to equalize “what male bodies do better, in general” and “what female bodies do better, in general.” But if you think about it, not a lot of sports were developed first by women, and only later tried by men. So maybe there would be other sports where those things also balance out.
"It is unfortunate that the Wall is not plugged in correctly."
I don't get that.
A kilogram is a kilogram. It’s not like some kilograms have girly bits and some have manly bits and one type is harder to get over a hill. If a woman can put out the same number of watts per kilogram for the same length of time as a man, then she can compete with a man. Of course, this is extremely unlikely, but that doesn’t mean that comparison is impossible, just means that the comparison won’t flatter the woman. Except that in this case, we have a woman who looks at first glance to be about as good as a man would be, at something we expect there to be a big sex difference at. Hence the surprise and confusion. She seems like a female track-and-field athlete from the eighties.
I know it’s only a maximum. I don’t know how long she can hold it for. One commentator here suggested 8 minutes, which would certainly suggest to me that she could have held on to CAS when he put in his 10-minute burst. It’s true that this will be affected to some degree by a long day in the saddle – although it was a relatively short stage, and they’d had 60km ‘rest’ since the last hill. Do we know what effect that has? From a casual look, it would seem as though the effect of stage length seems to only have an effect of a few tenths of a wat per kilogram anyway. But OK, maybe Vos would have tired and not been able to put out quite that much on the day. So… she wouldn’t have been at the head of the TdF, she’d have rolled in a couple of minutes down? Still… impressive, no?
Of course the Lance comparison wasn’t like-for-like, but that was the point. I compared Vos to top modern men and it seemed like she was on the same planet. Then I threw in Lance, showing that he was on a different planet altogether: a maximum effort for Vos, or a major field-breaking pull for CAS, could only match Lance’s average sustained effort.
[blackswangreen adds a useful datapoint. If Gesink can do 7, and Vos can do 6.6, Gesink can’t really break Vos in an attack. (I’m guessing. As I said before, Horner could follow Sorensen matching 6.4 for CAS’s 6.6… suggests that, as a guess, Vos would be technically dropped, but only marginally). It may of course be that Vos doesn’t have the same stamina… but then women are generally no worse than men at maintaining their power, so far as i’m aware.]
If Gesink can do 7, and Vos can do 6.6, Gesink can’t really break Vos in an attack.
It’s not as simple as that, it’s just a lab test… the guys who put out about the same amount of Watts/kg as Vos in that test include Weening and Joost Posthuma. Gesink can definitely break those guys in an attack.
You can only really gauge anything from this test regarding their respective strength if they’re all on the same form level when doing it. It’s usually done in early January, when most guys aren’t supposed to be in top form, whereas Vos is in the middle of her cross season and likely to be very close to top form.
And perhaps the two most important attributes for a pro cyclist, recovery level and mental strength, aren’t measured in this test. Not that I think that Vos would score particularly bad there…
by blackswangreen on Jan 13, 2012 3:56 AM EST up reply actions
If it was all based on numbers
then my consistent investment in the Eskimo (Tommy D) in the VDS would not look so silly year after year.
Here’s a guy that (reportedly) puts out massive numbers in training, but, well there’s a reason why he’ll not be worth 24 points in this year’s VDS…….
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
Sorry for all the confusion
I just wanted to point out that Vos has outstanding power. The link to the Coggin method I referenced was more to look at the 5 minute power as that would be closest to the V02 max numbers. While true this is not a view of her 20/60 minute efforts which would exhibit her Functional Threshold Power, FTP, it is impressive for any V02 effort.
So Apparently I'm not way off base.
Jeroen Blijlevens wants Vos to race against the men as well.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/10839/Jeroen-Blijlevens-wants-Marianne-Vos-to-ride-mens-races.aspx
I don’t see why it’s not possible. Apparently those results above were better than Pieter Weenings.
She’s get her ass handed to her in Time Trials…. and likely lose 5-6 minutes, but she could kill it on the climbs.
She’d be like J-Rod! Ha! Maybe she should try for this year’s Vuelta
I could see her getting dropped on descents though or using a lot more energy keeping up
by Vlaanderen90 on Jan 12, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
Last year the Giro Donne went down a side of the Mortirolo that the men have never used
this year they are going down there too. It’d be interesting to get split times for the section they do in common. And for those who haven’t seen, here’s Vos doing that descent (rewind a minute or so if you want the cow shots)
none of the courses are the admittedly the Stelvio
but a quick recce of the split times for the last three laps of the last few world championships show lap times of the women are 2 – 3 minutes slower than the corresponding mens times.regardless of course geography.















