Same old Spaniard, always cheating
by irishpeloton on Jan 24, 2012 11:18 AM EST
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PrintAlejandro Valverde won Stage Five of the Tour Down Under last week finishing first across the line at the top of Willunga Hill, just ahead of Simon Gerrans. Contrary to what Phil Liggett would have you believe, this was not the Spaniard’s first race in two years. He actually rode until May of 2010 but his ‘two-year’ suspension was back dated to January 2010. Consequently, it was his first race in 19 months.
Valverde won the stage thanks to the strength of his team. For the two laps of the circuit which brought the race over Willunga hill, there was a Movistar rider constantly at the front of the race, or thereabouts.
Before the decisive last two kilomtres, Valverde had Jose Ivan Gutierrez, and Angel Madrazo up the road.
The plan was for Valverde to bridge the gap to the front, then be aided by his team until the time came to launch the sprint for the finishing line. Which is exactly what happened. Valverde bridged and was shielded by Madrazo until the final few hundred metres where he latched on to Gerrans and sprinted by him for the stage win.
But the Movistar team cheated.
A hand-sling is a move used in the Madison track racing event. Rider A stretches his arm backwards waiting for his team-mate, Rider B, to come from behind and grab hold. Rider A then sacrifices much of his own momentum to propel Rider B forwards at a speed far greater than the speed at which he had initially approached Rider A.
‘Hand-sling’ is the colloquial term for this manouevre. It is known in the UCI rulebook as a flying relay. It is perfectly legal in Madison events on the track but during road racing it is forbidden.
But this is exactly what the Movistar team did when Jose Ivan Gutierrez gave Angel Madrazo a helping hand in the final kilomtres of Stage Five of the Tour Down under. This gave Madrazo the boost he needed to reach the leading group before Valverde’s group passed him out on the road. The result was that Madrazo was in a perfect position to aid his team leader in the final few hundred metres. A position which he may not have reached had he not cheated.
In 1972, former World Champion Hennie Kuiper won the Tour of Britain, finishing ahead of Marcel Duchemin. The Frenchman and his team lodged a complaint after the race claiming that the Dutch team had been giving Kuiper illegal hand-slings throughout the stage which ultimately led to Duchemin’s defeat. On this occassion, the complaint was ignored and Kuiper remained the winner.
But this was in an era where there weren’t several video cameras providing live high definition footage of the race. The footage of the alleged hand-slinging incidents was not available. For the 2012 Tour Down Under, this footage is available.
Tour Down Under 2012 Stage 5 ***LIVE*** Highlights.m4v (via zabelwatson)
Race incident number 9, article 12.1.040 of the UCI regulations states that the punishment for performing an illegal flying relay in a road race (amongst team-mates) is a fine of 200 Swiss Francs and a penalty of 10 seconds.
Having contacted the UCI about this matter. A spokesman responded saying:
We will receive the race report from the international commissaire designated at the Tour Down Under. I don’t know yet whether or not this rider has been sanctioned for this infringement. He should have been. If not, unfortunately, we cannot sanction a rider retroactively for such an infringement.
From checking the stage times and overall times of the riders in question, it appears that no time penalties were incurred, leading to the conclusion that neither Gutierrez nor Madrazo were penalised for this infringement.
Apparently, we have a case of the UCI not applying their own rules.
In the past, Alejandro Valverde tried to gain an edge over his rivals by cheating and was suspended for two years as a result. In his first race back in the peloton, he has already won a race by gaining an edge over his rivals via cheating. It’s a pity nothing was done about it at the time.
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I know it’s a sensationalist headline. I know Valverde himself didn’t actually cheat. And I know that the blood was just resting in Dr. Fuentes’ account….
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
very sensationalistic
not sure what the fact that he is spanish has to do with anything. i would have gone with ‘same old piti…’ or something. keep it personal, no need to drag a whole country into it.
"Ants don’t worry, they operate like a fantastic team, they accept obstacles and deal with them in a positive manner, they don’t complain and remain positive. An ant doesn’t work on emotion, is proactive and always chooses the ant role."
amen
posting a quasi-explanation as the first comment actually makes things worse, not better — it’s an admission that you knew the headline was crap, and posted anyways.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jan 24, 2012 8:28 PM EST up reply actions
actually, my bad for the word “crap,” no need for it.
I'm feverished, or the way you want to spell it
by plinytheelder on Jan 24, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
You watched a different race to the one you posted a clip of
Madrazo went aimlessly off into no mans land, never caught the leaders, was passed by Valverde (who was following teammate Moreno) et al and Madrazo played no part in the last few hundred metres at all. Even P&P called that right.
A couple of domestiques helped each out a little, when of no real use to their leader but hey…. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story (which it isn’t)
The handsling is at about 34.30 or thereabouts for anyone who wants to see it, but not wade through the clip.
And the headline is insulting in extremis
by andrewp on Jan 24, 2012 11:41 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Want to know who aided Valverde most in the final few hundred meters?
Michael Rogers. Hitting it from 350m or so out, but really just winding up the pace and drawing Gerrans into the position of having to lead out the real sprint
I NEED MOAR MUD
by Douglas Ansel on Jan 24, 2012 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
Here in Belgium handslings are a part of cycling etiquette
In windy races, with echelons the weakest riders can’t take turns at the front and they hang at the back of the group (‘op het kantje’ as we call it), catching a lot of wind. If you’re riding in such a single file and you can’t follow the guy in front of you anymore, the unwritten rule is that you give the guy behind you a handsling so he can close the gap you created.
I think it happens quite often in pro races too, especially at the back. But I also remember Freire being DQ’d (Romandie? Suisse?) because of a handsling some time ago.
Freire was disqualified for pushing. Wasn’t quite a handlsing.
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Jan 24, 2012 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Always thought it was etiquette in any race
eg you’re getting dropped and instead of losing the wheel in front (and therefore the pack) and meaning that anyone behind you is dropped as well, you madison swing the guy behind into your position so he can at least try to stay with the pack a bit longer. Must say, I haven’t really seen it happen in a pro race but then the camera shots are usually at the front of the peloton.
by RollinRollinRolland on Jan 25, 2012 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
Not in my race buddy
If I saw that happening in my race it would scare the shit out of me!
Someone who is spent, and probably not thinking too clearly (that whole lack of oxygen thing), reaching a hand out like that to someone else, probably a stranger that they have not done this with before, in the middle of a group, even a small group?
Aww hell no! Not around me! That there is just asking for some trouble.
If you are on the verge of being dropped and want to help, use the last of your energy to make sure there is no gap and deliver the guy behind you to the wheel in front, then check over your shoulder and carefully pull off to the side and make sure you are out of the way…
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
RRR is a West Australian. He may have been raised on the track ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Haha, not really. Different rides I guess :P
by RollinRollinRolland on Jan 25, 2012 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
No, the drop-out-fall-in handsling is quite common
especially in the pro ranks.
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
To be clear
I did say in my race, and I trust that there never was any confusion that my races were and will always remain far removed from the Pro Ranks…
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
There may be a difference...
In one case you’ve got random riders helping each other out of politeness by neutralising the harm one rider has done to the other. In the other you’ve got team-mates using it to gain an advantage. I haven’t read the regulations, but IP above says that the rules states that it is prohibited between teammates. Perhaps to make this very distinction, I guess?
Ha, other than Kushynski in Gent-Wevelgem 2 years ago...
He realised Oscar was taking his break at the back, and was a big threat, and that he had Oss 3 or 4 riders ahead. So he just slowed up and lost the wheel in front, leaving Oscar stranded. Wasn’t too polite, but quite clever.
Not fond of Paella, Tapas or Rioja, IP?
While it pisses me off with all the little things riders do (F Schlecks Camelbag, Cav’s Helmet condom, hand-slings) this generalisation is over the top.
by Uphill on Jan 24, 2012 11:59 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Alejandro Valverde is a Spaniard. If his name had two syllables I would have used that for my ridiculous headline. There’s a bit of hyper-P.C.-ness going on methinks.
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Jan 24, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
you're right we should cut you some slack,
you were surely drunk when you wrote that.
Seriously though, you seem to have been searching out some “hyper-PC-ness”.
You mean Val-verd isn't two syllables?
:P
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Jan 25, 2012 1:56 AM EST up reply actions
For what it's worth IP, I agree with this, there is a bit too much political correctness going on
I saw nothing saying that a whole country was cheating, merely one Spaniard. Nothing wrong with that IMO. A rider popped for recreational drugs, no problem, they weren’t using performance enhancers. A rider called what he is, a Spaniard, and suddenly you are racist, I don’t get it.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
Adding that maybe this post wasn't the best idea, but it does highlight one thing
It highlights the fact that people need to lighten the FU sometimes!
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
I didn’t change the title
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Jan 25, 2012 7:27 AM EST up reply actions
The headline is distracting and it undermines the thought you generally put into the things you write IP.
How about, ‘Same old, same old? (even if it’s not). I wanted Gerrans to win, but Valverde won fair and square.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Fair comment
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Jan 24, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
Consider this a test
Peterfish, consider this a test in self-restraint :-)
IP – you make me sad. You usually add such good content to not only this forum but the interwebs in general. This piece is letting yourself down….
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
easy please don't drag me into this muck (haha what a great play on words!)
anyone interested in seeing everyone agreeing to disagree peacefully should go to seahorse’s beautiful post-tdu discussion http://www.podiumcafe.com/2012/1/20/2722551/tdu-stage-5-third-thread-bottom-of-willunga-hill-go-gerro
I've heard you folks are a little loopy
and muk honestly I am a little confused by your post, are you joking or pulling my leg?
If you are serious, did you not see my reply to you in the Willunga thread: “muk your bah was totally OK "f that guy" to me was totally not OK”. (and gravelroad and I have already made up over this also)
And do you see one comment in this thread by me above or below except in reply to you right now?.
And did you not read my comments getting less loopy and more calm and peaceful and restrained in the last part of that third thread after that one silly Willunga post of mine?
I've heard you folks are a little loopy
No...he's tipping his hat to you. This is a place where he would like to be blunt and unrestrained, but he's not.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Peterfish
Pulling your leg.
Sorry it was not more clear, I did use a smiley face :-) (yeah I know…)
I read your posts and was pleased to see how that (finally) wound down. I was worried that you were going to end up leaving us (again), but now look forward to your comments continuing at the Cafe, especially later in the year, in those live race threads where I think most of us are anticipating some monumental battles between Valverde and Gilbert. I can barely wait!
P.S. if it helps, I often confuse myself :-)
(damn I’m still using those stupid emoticons instead of conveying my message with words, how lazy is that?)
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
ok haha jokes on me thanks muk see you in the next thread thanks for the great reply:)
;-)
<3
and !u
hahahaha!
I've heard you folks are a little loopy
whoops heehee, correct link is:
http://www.podiumcafe.com/2012/1/24/2729454/withdrawal-and-what-we-learned-from-the-tdu-now-image-free
(although I’m sure you all knew what i meant to say by my description)
I've heard you folks are a little loopy
tricky
you know what IP, technically you’re right, that was an infringement in the race but was it as serious as you suggest? IMHO I think no.
“Same old spanish” – generalisation but again not without foundation given the last couple of years (and don’t forget the buried links to football and tennis).
VVD for example troubles me. Let’s say he was doping ok but the way he was caught was blantantly unfair. If it had been a criminal court that evidence would have been excluded no doubt about it. Deep down I do believe it is better to let ten guilty to go free than one innocent convicted.
He had served his term, whatever you think about it, so he is entitled to a clean slate. Whether he deserves it is in the gift of each of us.
“let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone”.
IP is stirring the pot and begging for hits on his website
At least that’s what I choose to believe.
"the outfit is somewhat ruined by the condom on top of her head though" -tgsgirl
Yes, but he posted the same thing on his website
I think he just re:posts here because he love us.
note 1: I read it first from his Twitter link.
(note 2: I’ve been wrong before)
"the outfit is somewhat ruined by the condom on top of her head though" -tgsgirl
I repost here because I enjoy the inevitable comments.
I write about cycling because I like writing about cycling.
I don’t care about website hits. Why would I? So people click on the dozens of ads I have on there?
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Jan 24, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
I was fan in denial for years
but a hand-sling in pro cycling is nothing. Executed well it might even be worth a time bonus. I think they showed it on NBCSPORTS. It happened so fast… “did I just see a handsling? Cool.”
Some stage somewhere sometime, I have memories of Gerrans sucking wheels in a break and then win a sprint… maybe it was a Spanish guy and he had some kharma issues to clear up.
Tour 2008, Prato Nevoso
He told Egoi Martinez, Danny Pate and at least one more that he was tired and just wanted to finish. Then sprinted past the others to win.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
by TheFigurehead on Jan 24, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
ah yes, and Martinez was pissed right?
I’m American by way of Dublin circa 1850. Eason. It’s a bookstore chain I understand. So I have some bit innate fondness for anything Irish… to set the tone. So the point, an Irish runner living in the States was just popped for EPO and I ran across a flaming blog entry by someone I assumed to be Irish blaming the States for allowing wild-west like conditions tempting runners to come here and get on the jet-fuel with no worries… since the country is so big, how could you keep up with everyone, right? Well, I didn’t get the logic and didn’t take it personally, but I’m wondering if there’s something in the water these days getting folks fired up in some parts of the world.
This photo was taken by Blazing Saddles
The timeline would suggest it is from during the stage on 19th Jan. Andre Greipel following a team car up a hill.
He went on to win the sprint that day. Was it a result of the effort saved? Is it “same old Germans, always cheating?” As other Germans have cheated, he can be just as easily be tarred with the same brush with the same kind of expression. I know it’s sensationalist, but technically I now know Greipel “cheated”. My second sentence is, crucially, different from the one in your first comment. (I also pluralized it to avoid any connotation Greipel had previously cheated, whereas you headline with an accusation of cheating – misstate events, condemn someone for other people’s actions he had no control over, and then go on to say he didn’t do what you accused him off anyway – but “off piste” so to speak)
Cant be arsed to write a whole blog piece though – doesn’t bother me that much. Can be arsed to comment though.
Embedding full size Twitpics doesn’t work: they expire. You may still see it because it’s in your browser’s cache but we don’t. Here it is, click for larger:
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.
I didnt pluralizes in order to purposely indicate a connotation of previous cheating. To pluralize would be to generalize. I was not generalizing about Spaniards. I was stating a fact relating to Alejandro Valverde who, last I checked, is a cheat and a Spaniard. No connection between the two was intended to be implied.
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Jan 24, 2012 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
The plan was for Valverde to bridge the gap to the front, then be aided by his team until the time came to launch the sprint for the finishing line. Which is exactly what happened. Valverde bridged and was shielded by Madrazo until the final few hundred metres where he latched on to Gerrans and sprinted by him for the stage win.
and
This gave Madrazo the boost he needed to reach the leading group before Valverde’s group passed him out on the road. The result was that Madrazo was in a perfect position to aid his team leader in the final few hundred metres. A position which he may not have reached had he not cheated.
What you say happened, just didn’t happen. You posted the video proving that. The effect of the “cheating” was negligible to none on the overall result of the stage. Following a different teammate of AV the remainder of the field bulldozed past the hapless Jiggy and Madrazo. I dont think the Greipel picture affected the stage result greatly either – but it is a better argument for the same than the one in your post.
AV’s past is irrelevant to the argument you’re trying to make – which is predicated on, basically, a falsehood. Hence your headline remains insulting on the evidence proffered.
Now that’s more like it…
http://www.irishpeloton.com/
by irishpeloton on Jan 24, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Well it hasn't changed the headline...
Live in a country that is currently having to go to CAS to remain able to not select convicted, determined, deliberate drug cheats from representing it at the Olympics as that is not WADA code compliant. Am so over AV being able to take part in a cycle race – whether or not he apologised for his transgressions.
oh that's just pitiful.
If you’re going to be provocative, have the guts to back it up at least. You knew what connection would be made with that headline.
I think it's because he escaped the ban (except in Italy) for so long, and he hasn't made a big sorry statement.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Oh! Polemica! How I love thee!
You guys be great full for the show!
I was glad, that Movistar and GE didn’t made some kind of deal, prior or during that stage, like hey this is your inaugural race, we let you win this stage and you help us later in the season in Spain!
In loving memory of the HTC- Highroad
.
Ah, ha! And how do you KNOW? ;)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
He ( AV ) won that stage, didn’t he?
So no deal was made apparently.
In loving memory of the HTC- Highroad
.
LOL. He even won it with panache...wait 'til Phil finds out someone else can do that :)
What’s more, he rewarded himself with a beer, thereby endearing himself to many Australians :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Personally I’d love to see more madison swings in the road peloton. It should be legal.
Having Spartacus swing Andy endlessly up Galibier would be superb fun.
moo
+1
Or better yet, having Spartacus fling Andy DOWN the mountains!!!!
Or is that just going too far?
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
by muk on Jan 25, 2012 7:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
see the difference is
you see a kind and caring Fabian.
I see a cold, calculating and, quite frankly frustrated Spartacus!
Andy we did not drag your arse up the hill for you to be such a whimp going down the other side, now RIDE!
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
Kloden occasionally says 'interesting' things about Andy. I think he thinks Schlecket would benefit from
a little East German training sans drugs of course :)
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
I think it is too late to try East German or Russian training on Andy.
Has to be done when person is younger then 13-15, in my opinion and experience.
In loving memory of the HTC- Highroad
.
Good luck Mathieu! I've begged holmovka, begged him I tell you, to give us a glimpse into that world,
which he also experienced. It would be so, so great.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
Your character is still moldable at 13. At least in most cases.
In loving memory of the HTC- Highroad
.
Re the "PC" thing.
Putting Valverde’s race into this short headline explicitly connects it to the cheating, it’s disingenuous to suggest that it’s a casual descriptive. It can then be read two ways. One is a strongly racist generalization, along the lines of “all Spaniards are dishonest by nature”. Another interpretation might be a reference to the prevalence of doping among Spanish cyclists – I don’t think that this would be racist, provided that some evidence is presented that it’s true. But I don’t see any evidence here that the Spanish dope more than anyone else (nor do I think it’s actually true), so I think you are on dangerous ground. It’s pretty offensive, to be honest.
My first reaction was thinking it was saying all Spaniards too - I think that wasn't from what IP was saying, but because I see the "all Spanish dope" thing all over the place as if it's a proven fact
So I had to step back and check, am I reacting to IP, or what I’ve seen before. (not saying anyone else should do this, btw, just talking about me!)
(Yes, there are a lot of Spaniards who have been done for doping, BUT there are a lot more riders from Spain in the peloton than practically any other nation, except Italy – and it’s important to look at rates too. I dunno, if, say 10 out of 100 Spanish riders* who competed in the 2009 TdF subsequently got done for doping/had been done in the past/been implicated in Puerto, and 1 out 2 Luxembourgeoisie and 1 out of 4 Brits, the rates say something different than numbers, and Luxembourg is the dopiest nation.
And then, do you look at it by nation, or by team, or by age, or by date they started riding, or other affiliations. I’m dubious about making generalisations based on nationality, but I know I make them all the time over team history to a point (if a rider has ridden for, I dunno, Saunier, Gerolsteiner, a Bruyneel team and Rock Racing, then I have raised eyebrows!)
- numbers pulled out of the air, as I’m sure you can guess)
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Jan 25, 2012 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
My first thought
On seeing the title:
“I give you my word as a Spaniard”
“No good, I’ve known too many Spaniards”
I guess the difference is that Inigo Montoya was a likeable fictional character, and Piti’s a cheating punk.
"I’m pretty disappointed, but if this is what people want to see, a race decided on a downhill," Andy Schleck said. "I don’t think that. A finish like this should not be allowed."
Wouldn't Ireland be the "dopiest" nation?
Kimmage, Kelly, Earley, Papa Roche…
Young Roche? hmm.
There’s always hope for Deigy, I guess. If he gets back to the World Tour.
I personally think it would be shame to start characterising all the Irish based on the black marks of their past cycling record. But some may like the “un-PC” nature of it all.
it's not really "race" is it? nationality, right?
Or, are we uncovering a weird difference in the association of “race” and the terms used to express it?
Like, I know (as someone with Hispanic ancestry, hard as it is to detect under the veneer of Scots-Texan redneckery), that when I think of “Mexican” as a racial descriptor, that’s full of it for a variety of reasons—but the preferred racial and cultural designation (No Gloria Anzaldua will here be quoted) is a matter of some debate.
Well, race doesn't really mean anything at all scientifically.
So I take it simply to mean an arbitrary division of the human population in common usage. I certainly think there are people with racial prejudice against people from specific countries. What would you call that, if not racism?
Just to clarify -
“Race” does mean something to a biologist – but the current consensus is that human genetic differences are too small for the term to be applicable. There is no Hispanic race, no Caucasian race, etc. etc. The unfortunate thing is that the small genetic differences between humans in different regions do include prominent physical characeristics such as skin color, lending superficial credibility to the idea that our brains are also significantly different (genetically). They are not. The vast majority of behavioural differences among humans are cultural, not genetic.
so . . . race is a cultural construct
the perception of which is relative to the assumptions of the perceiver?
Pretty much.
The usual definition of “species” (although this itself is disputed) is based on ability to interbreed; biological “races” are separate groups within a species, differentiated in some “significant” way (somewhat arbitrarily defined…), that can still interbreed, but that appear to be on the way to potential speciation… so at best, even to a biologist, race is a pretty woolly concept. And the evidence is that even this wooly concept does not fit humans at all.
So, for example, “Hispanic” clearly means something when we use the word – but it’s subjective and cultural as you say, there is no genetically distinct Hispanic group. At best, you can trace an individual’s genetic ancestry, and show that some percentage of his genome came from a certain region… and some from another… and ultimately, of course, all from Africa.
we all come from Africa.............?
oh no my entire catholic education was for nothing? wow I always thought ‘adam and eve’ was pushing it……………. ;)
that's definitely true
in my experience. But people use the word racism when talking about bias with regard to nationality because there’s not a good word to replace “racist” or racism. Surely some word exists, but it’s probably not a part of most people’s vocabulary. And besides, everyone knows what you mean even if it’s not technically correct.
Is this what we have to look forward to?
“North vs South?”
“Same old Spaniard, always cheating”
Is cycling so uninteresting that we have to sensationalize, every… last… detail? Are we just looking for drama because there isn’t enough?
Podium Cafe has long been a source of love and hate for me. I like participating in the VDS, I like chatting in the live threads (sometimes). But man, a lot of times it’s really tiring around here, you know? A little of a bullying of an environment.
It’s cycle racing. from Coppi to Merckx, from Cav to Valverde. It’s sports. People cheat. Get over it, already. The French cheat, The Italians cheat, The Brits cheat, The Irish cheat, The Belgians cheat, The Spanish cheat, The Russians cheat. Why do we have so much anger about that?
I don’t see Valverde cheating here (I see Guttierrez and Madrazo)…. yet there is the headline.
I’m not advocating apathy, or a vanilla environment, or rose-coloured masses. But when and why have we become so angry, so bitter and so petty?
A stream of anger in the live threads “FUCK him” and a fight between members… (I don’t wanna participate there)
A cheap shot headline here and there…(I don’t wanna participate here)
Where do I go in Podium Cafe to have a good time? To share some laughs. To enjoy cycling as a little opiate to the stress of everyday life? Where do I go to celebrate cycling, not to see it’s fans tear every little thing down?
Where and when is this place going to be a little less angry, less prejudice, less nationalist and less bitter?
Where and when is it going to be a little more fun?
by LawrenceS on Jan 25, 2012 11:35 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know, Man! Fun enough for me!
I don’t know, Man! Fun enough for me!
And compare to some other sights and discussion boards, very mild, easygoing, forgiving and very very welcoming!
In loving memory of the HTC- Highroad
.
I took all the "fuck" comments as tongue-in-cheek.
I’m so used to everyone being fundamentally good-natured on here, that I think I tend to assume anything like that is meant jokingly. But there’s always such a difficulty conveying tone, and a lot of “in-jokes” among people who know each other very well, so I can see the problem.
You took it wrong
everything I wrote above was sarcasm. You can see that in my comment in the “North vs South” thread…. oh wait… where’d that go?
Oh my God! Entire post with all comments just disappeared!
Bermuda Triangle!
In loving memory of the HTC- Highroad
.
Well . . .
. . . if it is truly under “review”, you have the author’s permission to go ahead and six it. Yeehoo is right, it was purely provocative. I wrote it in response to the comments on IP’s post here. I’m as offended by some of the responses to Irish Peloton’s post, as I’m sure many were to “North vs. South.”
Although, damn, I didn’t get a chance to see the comments on “North vs. South”. I’d have enjoyed them, I’m sure.
Resist PC-nonsense everywhere, anytime!!
by Le Sprinteur on Jan 26, 2012 7:16 PM EST up reply actions
Although, damn, I didn’t get a chance to see the comments on "North vs. South". I’d have enjoyed them, I’m sure.
Resist PC-nonsense everywhere, anytime!
The North-South comments were mainly calmly pointing out that your post was racist (or xenophobic) and intentionally provocative …. and not really in the spirit of this site.
Your comments here confirm that view. There are many other sites for you if you enjoy that sort of flame bait discussion.
moo
+2...adding that there are some occasions I suspect where I'd rather have a fight than a feed, in a fun way.
I’m not keen though on your particular type of non-PC. What I said in the post was that you needed finesse. You don’t crack a peanut with a sledge hammer, and thus far satire is eluding you as a writer.
"How strange it was to see men doing something beautiful. Something pointless and elegant." Tim Winton, 'Breath'
well, it seems as thought anything that isn't completely PC is jumped on
I’m not used to the crazy PC vibe that can sometimes creep into PdC and so I back off for awhile and come back at a later date. I like to talk about racing and follow the live race threads but have found it increasingly harder to come and post around here because of the responses to topics like this one. FFS, we are adults here but it does seem like we as a group can be a bit soft from time to time.
Focus on easy first. If that's all you get, that ain't half bad - Caballo Blanco
I disagree with this completely.
If you think this discussion means everything has to be PC, that’s your bag. I don’t see that at all. What it means in my mind is that everyone has as much right to come here and enjoy cycling through community and shared information in a respectful manner of others as much as anyone has the right to do the opposite.
I agree, things can go to far in both directions.
I’ve seen it go to far, many times, with articles like “North vs South”, or with arguments erupting in live threads and articles like this which are confirmation bias based on encouraging discord.
I’ve yet to see things go to far to the “PC” side of things.
FFS, we are adults, what separates us from acting like children is the ability to temper our ideas with a sense of forethought. That’s still far from being overly PC (which would actively discourage the conversation altogether or temper it with rules).
Yet, this article is at the spectrums end of being uncalled for in it’s current “sensationalist” format, with the author himself stating “he knows Valverde himself didn’t cheat” and claiming he posted it here for because he “enjoys the inevitable comments”
What positive outcome can come from articles like this, framed with those ideas?
We should be coming here to contribute to community, not to detract from it. No?
by LawrenceS on Jan 25, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
PC sometimes does go mad.
But that does not mean we should respond by going to the other extreme and saying “everything is ok, grow a thicker skin”. There’s a balance, and we won’t always agree where it is, but to me this headline is borderline racist, and certainly offensive.
There is no good reason can come up with that the headline doesn't use the riders name
rather than state his nationality.
To deconstruct the headline. Rather than use his name but instead his nationality, then importance can be implied for mentioning the nationality.
Then there is “same old”, often taken for an abbreviation of “same old, same old” and in usage can even mean typical.
Then there is “always cheating”. We have it from the poster himself in comment one that he knows AV didn’t cheat. The main post has a load of (frankly) hogwash about the benefits to him, however, from others doing so. (An inaccurate description of the end of the race, at best a moot point that Madrazo gained some relief from the handsling to be useful later, though even if he did do 50 yards on the front for AV as he and Moreno caught him he had hung around Pate’s back wheel long enough to negate any benefits he gained from the handsling in the grand scheme of things) That is before adding that the only known instance of cheating is a blood bag from 2006. Nothing concrete since then, just supposition.
So we have a load of made up stuff supporting the current proposition. If you can deem that patently make-believe then you begin to question further why use “same old spaniard” in front of it a little more closely and the conclusions are mostly poor. It begins to look less descriptive and a lot more pejorative.
Don’t really think IP hates on the spanish in general, am pretty sure he hates on AV in particular. So much so is beginning to mold a version of events to a hypothesis regardless of the veracity of the evidence used in support of it. Then it begins to almost approach a vendetta at worst, at best it leaves an impression he maybe didnt intend. (Though a look at his twitter stream shows a tweet defending the sensationalist headline because the article beneath it is accurate – so hard to be totally sure)
The headline idea comes from football
“same old arsenal, always cheating” chant in England, which IP linked.
1. That could have been clever, but the rest is just confirmation bias.
2. BTW Ar-se-nal is three syllables.. not two. Mo-vi-star? Ma-dra-zo?
3. It’s questionable what the point is to go so far as to highlight a move between Guiti and Madrazo, contact the UCi and write a article with the goal of discord, which had no effect on the bloody race. Madrazo wasn’t directly in front of Valverde and Moreno for even 3 seconds.
I can see it making some sense if Moreno slung Valverde…. but seriously…. Madrazo did nothing. Then it’s spun into this xenophobic, anti-valverde mess, which just blows up here and may (who knows?) encourage other articles like “North vs South”. Then everyone else goes all “PC crazy”.
… like I said temper ideas with the slightest sense of forethought, and maybe people need to ask what their irrational biases are.
Arsenal can be either 2 or 3 syllables
I’d generally say “arse-nal” (the team and the weaponry) – but that’s a combo of laziness & where I grew up – but you can also chant “Ar-se-nal, Ar-se-nal, Ar-se-naaaaaaaal”
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Jan 25, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
Oh dear
can the season begin soon enough?
Better still, VDS in about a week…
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 25, 2012 5:11 PM EST reply actions
I know!
Wait till the Aussies catch the boss (yet again) declaring that the TDU isn’t part of the season.
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Jan 25, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
Which one of you bastards
called this bastard a bastard?
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
don't be such a
hm… I’ll go with piss locust.
De cross gaat out that door.
by Chris Fontecchio on Jan 25, 2012 5:29 PM EST up reply actions
Untrue! I was always invited.
(the beer calls to me)
I'm not just a smartarse. Other parts of me are sometimes clever as well.
by omnevelnihil on Jan 25, 2012 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
Beer calls to you too?
I thought it was just me…..
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
Yes!
The best strategy during an “uncomfortable” thread is not to respond …. But to cheerfully change the subject
moo
How typically Swiss
:)
"I’m pretty disappointed, but if this is what people want to see, a race decided on a downhill," Andy Schleck said. "I don’t think that. A finish like this should not be allowed."
Huh?
Not wishing to stir up any more undue controversy, but how do you tie things together with a rug?
Or is that an interior decorating metaphor?
I should have remembered...
anything on PdC that seems incomprehensible => Google for Lebowski quotes
by straw dog on Jan 28, 2012 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
That is worthy of a rec.
A truism if ever there was one…
"Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill" - Fausto Coppi
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