UCI takes away Kathryn Bertine's Olympic qualifying points
I've been following Kathryn Bertine's stories about her quest to ride for St Kitts & Nevis at the Olympic Games, and was surprised when I saw her latest update - all about how the UCI have taken away points she thought she'd won last season. I raised my eyebrows at why they took away her points from the Venezualan race:
Even though the Venezuela race was listed as a UCI points race and the points had already been given out, the UCI ruled not enough international teams had participated and rescinded the eight points I won there.
It seems bizarre, given that the UCI is all about "internationalisation", that they can decide to de-list a women's race in South America, where they surely should be doing everything to promote the sport in "non-traditional cycling countries"... but what really bothers me is how Bertine had to find all this out herself, and from how she tells it, don't seem to be particularly good at communicating with her afterwards.
I hope she can sort it all out - but it's good to see her article end on a positive - here's to her moving onwards and upwards, and getting stronger as a result.
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So the one deadline is fixed in stone
yet meanwhile teams just appear on the UCI site. After announcing 35 teams in a press release last week, Basque team Debabarrena – Gipuzkoa has just appeared without a word to make it 36.
Plus Evie Stevens still isn’t shown on the Specialised-lulu team sheet.
And even more ridiculously, Hanna Solovey still has all the points she got at Gatineau and at her nats, evn though she was busted for doping at the Tour of Chongming.
wait, C/G/Hanna Solovey was busted for doping?
I did not know that. Depressing.
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Feb 1, 2012 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
(I guess hoping it's a typo is insane
but that * is * a spelling I haven’t seen before…)
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Feb 1, 2012 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Pushing your luck a bit, perchance
Me, I’m really surprised that it got absolutely zero publicity, even within UCI headquarters.
Two relevant rules
1.2.029 National road championships shall be run during the last week of the month of June. If this is not the case, no UCI points may be awarded. All results must be received by UCI by email or fax no later than two days after the last day of the event. No result received after that time shall be taken into consideration for the UCI classification.
and
2.1.003 To be able to be registered on the international calendar, a race must guarantee the participation of at least 5 foreign teams. A mixed team is regarded as a foreign team if the majority of its riders are of foreign nationality.
I guess this is the race, there were riders from 4 countries.
Badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger...
was halfway through posting similar
The surprise should only be that the points were awarded in error rather than they were taken away once the error noticed. And arguably is surprising that the rider thought immediately before, during or after the race any points should be available.
The race also had some Brazilian riders that DNS/DNA apparently.
Points for this race the day before removed also.
All the Venezuelan riders that raced that weekend have lost considerably more points under the same ruling, some of whom have dropped out of the top 100 as a result (with up to 80 points lost).
Then again other riders are probably pleased their chances of qualification have been bolstered through having these points removed
as a result of cancellation of the races
(and possibly other results) Venezuela team score plummeted around 200+ points since the rankings of June 11- taking them out of the automatic qualifying positions by country. Were in 15th once with outside chance of qualifying 3 riders (6-13th) and now languish down in 28th and need to do some work to get there via the country rankings (7-23rd) for 2 berths in the race.
But how can they take back the ranking of a race after the fact?
It’s not fair on the riders who * did * travel there – especially when there’s a world of difference for S American riders to get to Venezuela than it is for eg Dutch riders getting to Belgium, even before we factor in the support for cyclists in different nations.
Apparently they’ve done the same thing about the 2011 Golan races as well. I think if they’re serious about internationalisation, they should have incentives, or at least different rules for races outside of Europe, USA, Aus and other places with big cycling cultures
Aka Pigeons!
by Sarah Connolly on Feb 2, 2012 8:10 AM EST up reply actions
There are already different rules for Nat Champs points
Points scored as follows (as of ranking 15 Jan)
Position – Road race Time Trial
Top Ten Nations
1 40 8
2 30 5
3 16 2
4 12 3
5 10
6 8
7 6
8 3
Rest
1 – 10 3
2 – 7 2
3 – 5
Equalise the points system and a whole host of nations riders stand a much better chance of gaining a place through the top 100 route. Globalisation with a pen stroke.
The late May/early June rankings the last few years (the ones the current qualification system for London relies on) sees the 100th place rider having scored, 47, 43.55, 37, 35. Automatic qualification for a larger nation Nat Champ, less so for a smaller nation. Then there will be arguments about the merits of a Mongolian or Israeli win v a French or US one etc (not to mention the hopes of getting a UCI executive/congress made up of voting delegates from such nations passing it is probably nil)
Would be a damn sight more in keeping with the Olympian ideal in one way, but may not be such a competitive race – going against the Olympian ideal in another.
Authorising potential points scoring races in various parts of the globe is the first step, getting nations to race there in sufficient numbers to make those races worth a ranking score is the second step (but an Aus/NZ race other nations cant afford to get to either also doesn’t score ranking points for the competitors – the rules can affect rich and poor nations equally).
Bertine losing points is personally unfortunate. Giving Venezuela 200+ affects riders from many nations. Ultimately there are currently 67 golden places available. A quality threshold also has to work in tandem with a quantity threshold.
There seems to be very little wrong with the rules imo.
How these are communicated and executed, now that may be another matter all together.
I didn't realise the second rule existed
but I’m glad it’s there. It’s been particularly noticeable on the UCI calendar this year that more than a few races have just popped up from nowhere in obscure parts of the world and with a ridiculously high ranking. And often they clash with well established races elsewhere. Lots of Olympic qualifying points for the home nation, but not really a serious attempt to grow the sport.
The more look at this story the less substance it seems to have
What is basically all but a “Venezuelan only” weekend of events have the associated points annulled. Listing the races as 1.2 enables riders and teams of various nations to attend and score ranking points. They don’t. Has been listed the same status this year – so the opportunity to score points here repeats itself. In reality an analysis of the race says is effectively the status of a National Calendar race. The line up makes that seem fair. It should be scored accordingly.
The marked effect of leaving the race results alone and including them in the rankings is so disproportionate to the team rankings sheet that several other nations are directly affected, as well as the riders from those nations. Those teams’ right to fairness in qualifying probably outweighs an injustice perceived or apparent to any of the individual riders affected in the races concerned.
The National Champs thing is just sad. Then again organisers of races in nations such as Mauritius, Ivory Coast, Eritrea, Cuba, El Salvador, Mongolia, Zimbabwe etc all managed to get it right apparently. And the rule is extended to every race of significance where it is a requirement the race organiser makes available facilities for commissionaires to advise Nat Fed/UCI or a race result.
Perhaps the ire should be focused at the race organiser/Nat Fed where it belongs.
Bending rules is all well and good in theory. If the rider concerned is then to go on and qualify at someone else’s expense – then tell the athlete that misses out on a spot at the games because it of it why it was fair and just the rules were bent for the rider above her in the ranking.
There are many reasons why it is more difficult to qualify for the Olympics from a smaller nation, but the two reasons for the points deductions made are not amongst them
Discuss funding problems, lack of infrastructure, travel costs, regional race bias, disparate ranking scales for large and small nations, that 145 men will start and only 67 women, etc and can make much better points about the difficulties of qualifying than admin errors affect scores.
That said would wish the rider every piece of luck in her attempts to qualify.
Good points, I think.
Especially this:
Bending rules is all well and good in theory. If the rider concerned is then to go on and qualify at someone else’s expense – then tell the athlete that misses out on a spot at the games because it of it why it was fair and just the rules were bent for the rider above her in the ranking.
If the races don’t qualify, it just doesn’t seem right that they should award points at the expense of another rider doing races with deeper, more international fields. I get the difficulties of travel. But hmm, Bertine didn’t quite convince me here that she’s been wronged.
~ Gavia ~
There are rules that no-one objects to the bending of
AA Drink probably broke a couple registering late, for example, but in this case there are probably a few dozen people round the world going over the results line by line. THings get awfully tight after the top 15
One last aside
Bertine National Champ 2009/10/11. The 2009 points show up in the rankings of that year, the 2010 and 11 points do not. So Nat Fed apparently capable of getting the results there on time one year, but problem seems to occur and be repeated thereafter.
Lucky fluke the first time or continual crass ineptitude by the Nat Fed that was overlooked once. Hard to say really, but any blame really does lie fairly and squarely there.
It's not ideal that she is punished for a failing that is not her own
but the UCI do have to stick to the rule.
And I’m not really sure results in the St Kitts and Nevis Nat Champs should qualify you for the Olympics.
The story develops a life of it's own
UCI Overlord now apparently onside. The rider’s twitter stream is full tweets/responses full of phrases like “fight the good fight”, an exhortation for a social media campaign to get the points back and my favourite
"Woke up to emails from pro women on various teams: “We will help u get ur points.” I win, UCI. Regardless of outcome, I win this one"
In the interests of balance please excuse me while I use this board to argue the contrary and in parts pose sort of an open letter to Ms Bertine.
We have an athlete that is basically trying to win a bet – can you qualify for the Olympics? Should also add I don’t doubt the same athlete is putting in the time and effort to become the best she can be at the chosen sport, but is coming up against more obstacles than perhaps envisaged at the start of the quest. She failed in 08 to qualify but it was a good story. Is trying again in 12, and remains a good story. I follow it, may others too. Then the linked article appears.
Such a self-aggrandizing, inaccurate, half-a-story blog piece not seen in a long time. But it obeys rule 101 for twitter and blog response – it slags of the UCI and lays all blame for practically everything at their door. It feigns ignorance and surprise where it is not warranted and makes a right meal of everything it possibly can. Such a media savvy operator knows those are the buttons to press.
We now have complaints that UCI does nothing to support globalisation, they are a ship of fools, and the “overlord” using the argument “that UCI is inherently corrupt cant believe it wasn’t this time” as if that makes it all OK, or indeed makes any sense.
Then you drill down into the specifics and absolutely nothing written really stands up to any scrutiny readily available on the net.
“I went to check the UCI standings a few weeks ago”. All inferences indicate that the Venezuela team were docked the points from the race the eight points were scored at prior to the world champs in September, so reasonable to assume you were also. So could/should really read a “few months ago” when change in rankings should have first been apparent. Ven only raced with three riders at the worlds, so outside the top 20 teams as per qualifying rules would guess. So your score should have 13 by then as a maximum – assuming points for the races were all lost together which seems reasonable. (Basing this remark on Ven’s reliable record of racing as many riders as possible most year’s at worlds. Start numbers also give a clue to relevant ranking positions).
This Ven race is one you have raced before in 08 – as part of a series of races prior to Beijing. Your blogs from 08 include such phrases as:
This is cutting it dangerously close to the cycling regulations that require all countries to submit a roster of international athletes to the UCI (international cycling’s governing body) by Dec. 20
Fortunately, after a careful reading of the 68-page guidebook from the International Cycling Union (UCI), I discover that although UCI cycling national teams need to be registered by Dec. 20, 2007, individuals on national teams can still compete in qualifying races … if they are invited to join an established pro team. This means I can represent St. Kitts and Nevis, but only if a professional team asks me to be a guest rider
As was the case in China and Venezuela, to race the Vuelta Ciclista Femenina a El Salvador, I need to be on an UCI-sanctioned composite team of four to six riders. The race director groups me with five other cyclists, all of whom are trying to chase down Olympic points
As someone that seems to have more than a passing resemblance with the rule book is it remotely possible that when you lined up in Venezuela in 11 it was obvious the eight points were ultimately awarded in error, and would be removed when noticed? The rules dont seem to have changed since 05.
You would also know that as the race is going to be run again before the Olympic deadline those points would go anyway as it is a 12 month rolling ranking. Unless you race again and get the same result or better they disappear regardless of a UCi ruling barring them this time around.
Would also know that in an Olympic year the race is much more likely to be contested by many more teams (just like in 08) and thus more likely to be deemed an international race and count this time. Brazil, Mexico etc much more likely to turn up in 12 just like in 08. So although of no real consequence in the scheme of things – you proceed to make a meal of the point.
Which brings us to the Nat Champs. There are two conditions to getting the points available there to count. Run the race, and the Nat Fed send the results on to the UCI in time.
Using the same assumed passing resemblance with the rules can assume you know that. Also reasonable to assume a Nat Fed would go the extra mile to assist a rider in obtaining points and help their riders qualify, making their oversight even more egregious. Particularly as the leaders of the Nat fed had been so helpful in helping you to secure citizenship, stage races, assist you in many many other ways. You would think sending a timely email would be within their capabilities, or that you could have reminded them to do so. But they are (probably) good friends of yours so no reaosn to slag them off in print – although by inference you do just that.
Have had a look at the race results behind your Nat Champs wins. Didn’t beat many home most years. That doesn’t really matter however, you beat the riders that turned up. (my fav one is when the rider in third DNF). It speaks volumes for the attempts to globalize cycling that your result scores the same as many many other nat champs results – but doesn’t quite get to “A national champion potentially not qualifying for the Olympics because of an email mistake doesn’t seem fair”. Rather than acknowledge this largesse in the rules, you now complain about the people that granted this points opportunity to you for a failing at your end.
Cant find your 10 results in the rankings either, 11 don’t show up either any more (if they did in the first place). Doesn’t matter for a worlds ride, as get to race anyway under that race’s rules. Did it suddenly become more important when they had passed and the Olympics now the immediate priority? Why no questions to your fed at the end of 10 for non appearance of the points? Did that not forewarn you as to the remedial actions required in 11?
Could go on and on. To me it looks like you (and others close to you) dropped the ball and now protest too much. (And that is without going into the development (or lack of it) in cycling in St Kitts during your time there – a stated part of the scheme of things)
That all overlooks that despite earning all the qualifying points in question, any place gained as a result of your efforts actually belongs to the NOC to award to a rider of its choice. You may be the obvious candidate, but until nominated the place isn’t yours to moan about, and long term may just be of more use in developing cyclig in St Kitts awarded elsewhere.
I note you have a big announcement re womens cycling due next week.
Aside from my UCI points drama, here’s some good news: my project to get women’s cycling more media attn is going to happen. Stay tuned!
I genuinely hope it is big. I congratulate you on generating a cycling twitter storm prior to the announcement. Genuinely hope it lives up to the billing.
Am all for the further development of womens cycling, just not so keen on what appears hyperbole based on bugger all of a sound basis.
And believe it or not do wish you every bit of luck in qualifying, as previously stated. Would just rather you did it without having to look the rider that came 101 in the face, and possibly the rider chucked off the team that previously had two spaces but now down to one etc and say sorry – but you should have blogged and socially networked better.
by andrewp on Feb 3, 2012 7:33 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
It is, and there is.
I saw a baby that looked like Cadel Evans the other day...
by John Cyclopunk on Feb 4, 2012 6:27 AM EST up reply actions
Was a bit verbose!
There is a shorter version
UCI rankings (for a rider that scored 21 points)
29/6/11 134th (KB 8 points = 240th (first rankings after Ven races and Nat Champs)
17/7/11 137th (8 = 251st)
31/7/11 134th (8 = 255)
15/8/11 125th (not on list as has no points)
The 11 rankings still show the disqualified races with points theoretically scored for each rider, although it doesn’t count them in the revised totals. The team totals on the same rankings look fixed in stone, rather than subject to the vagaries of the rider related rankings and any errors.
The Venezuela team placed (on the same dates) 14th/13th/13th/28th. You lost your 8 points between 31/7 and 15/8. They are never coming back. Imagine if the Ven fed cant get them back you wont.
Nat Champs points – just never showed up it seems
St Kitts team score is (on the same dates) – 8/8/8/0
You wrote
Then, the really big kick: The UCI would no longer count my 13 national championship points
Did they ever?
I got a little confused when I didn’t see my name where it had once been
.
Was it ever there?
Or did you just look on the latest rankings where 21 points would place you (125) and carry on accordingly with the blog piece? And even that assumption is specious as if you kept your points so would the Ven riders and others, so 125 is not the place you would have slotted into. (The winner of your 8 point scoring race – now languishing on 12 points on the rankings – would be on 92, placing you in 126th etc)
should add
use of you = continuation of open letter meme, rather than being directed at JohnCP.
Have tweeted KB to say
@KathrynBertine any comment?. More than willing to fulsomely apologise where incorrect.
still awaiting any response, yet several more supporters have been thanked since.
Remain aware that, as as @inrng pointed out
"…McQuaid says social media "gives anybody a voice" & opinions can "become a virus"
Appreciate all the research
but your use of 10, 11 as years throws me every time :)
"Beer helps." -- Ant1.

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