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Exogenous testosterone in Landis' A sample

German news is reporting that an IRMS test was conducted on Landis' "A" sample and showed evidence of exogenous testosterone (not naturally produced by FL).

Star-divide

Report here at CN

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul31news

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Cortisone would cause that result
Landis was taking cortisone injections for his hip.

The IRMS test would give the same result whether he was taking cortisone or using a testosterone patch or both.  AFAIK there is no way to use that test to distinguish between the two.

As I said in a comment on another thread, the use of cortisone means that Landis can't use the IRMS test to counter the T/E ratio in his sample.

OTOH, they should be able to test all of Landis' TdF samples to see if the result is consistent.

Looks like this further leak on Landis' test results comes from the French newspaper Le Monde, which is associated with the testing lab, and was also the paper that wrote the infamous story with the alleged test results from seven-year-old Lance Armstrong samples.

by socal on Jul 30, 2006 2:52 PM EDT   0 recs

Disputed
like everything else, the report says that ain't so.

by Chris... on Jul 30, 2006 4:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

NYT providing
timelines, ratios, results, names and sources:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/sports/othersports/31cnd-landis.html

Courtesy of lili from previous post on another thread.

Not looking good.

So much for the conspiracy theories regarding French newspapers, French labs, WADA, etc.

by Rydr1 on Jul 31, 2006 10:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No matter the outcome
Stage 17 will be remembered as the ballsiest ride ever!
-K-

by KevinK on Jul 30, 2006 4:42 PM EDT   0 recs

IMHO
the outcome has everything to do with where thisride goes down in history.

by kalais on Jul 30, 2006 4:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

i guess
if it has to be explained, it wasn't as clever as i thought.
-K-

by KevinK on Jul 30, 2006 6:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Let's see
I don't really know the appropriate place to put this and doesn't probably warrant a diary of it's own, so I'm just sticking it here for kicks and giggles.  Found at Bobkestrut.

Pro Tour Purgatory  

"Edward Hopper frittered away gratuitous amounts of time watching six-day races in Madison Square Garden in search of inspiration. Undoubtedly, the recently concluded Tour de France has attracted his attention whilst floating around the ether. I've been possessed by the caustic spirit of Edward Hopper today, and a 2006 version of Nighthawks has been channelled through me via Photoshop. Click on the image to start the sequence of panels..."

by bethie on Jul 30, 2006 5:33 PM EDT   0 recs

I finally got inspired
to post my own ideas that have been brewing a while about how unrigorous the anti-dopers are. I wish I could trust them! But the people in charge, like Pound et al, are witch hunters, not scientists.

by hughw on Jul 30, 2006 8:56 PM EDT   0 recs

Why were the stage 19 and 20 samples not positive?
If anyone has seen an explanation for this, I'd love to know what it is.

Apparently, according to the reported A-sample test results, after stage 17, Landis' T/E ratio measured at 11:1.

Landis was also tested after stages 19 and 20, because he was the GC leader after those stages.  But no "irregular" result was found in those samples, apparently.

Shouldn't those samples also have shown a T/E ratio above the 4:1 limit?  It's not possible that the alleged "excess" testosterone simply vanished in two days, is it?

by socal on Jul 31, 2006 1:31 AM EDT   0 recs

Short half-life
formulations of testosterone are available (in oral, gel, or patch form or by injection) which can can temporarily result in high urinary ratios of T/E. However, the ratios typically fall to < 6:1 within 4-6 hours (the typical length of a Tour stage).

Presumably, the two tests after the stage and the dozen or more test performed before the stage are normal (i.e., below 4:1). Regardless, even if Landis is one of those extremely rare athletes with a high T/E ratio > 6:1, his baseline values should not change by more than +/- 30%. So apparently, we are seeing an extremely high one-day only spike and the simplest explanation is doping.

by Rydr1 on Jul 31, 2006 1:50 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow.
Short half-life
formulations of testosterone are available (in oral, gel, or patch form or by injection) which can can temporarily result in high urinary ratios of T/E. However, the ratios typically fall to < 6:1 within 4-6 hours (the typical length of a Tour stage).

That means that anyone riding a grand tour stage or a long one-day race could take testosterone the morning of the race and still pass a post-race test, unless they were careless or unlucky?

Wow.

by socal on Jul 31, 2006 2:04 AM EDT   0 recs

Yes
That is correct. Check Manzano's description of what he did and what it feels like. As posted from above, http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/10613.0.html

Band names, AndroGel, Rastandol, etc.

It seems as if the goal with testosterone, EPO and other drugs, is to dope your baselines up to the WADA limits (e.g. 4:1, 50, etc.) without triggering a red flag requiring additional testing.

(Small does of EPO aren't detectable past 12 hrs. Reading some of the stories in the professional literature also indicate a sickening number of guys showing up to drug control tests with freshly bleeding puncture marks over their veins. Throw in 500 cc of saline and your hematocrit goes down a few percent. You have up to an hour to show up for the test. The UCI makes it easy.)

by Rydr1 on Jul 31, 2006 2:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I wonder why
so many people use religious terminolgy when describing such a routine practice as doping in international cycling? Do you worship at the Alter of Lance too? Do you think there is a French conspiracy against Uncle Sam?

Doping in professional cycling is a rather common, secular event. So why get so worked up about it? Let's see, if we go back a few years and do a little research we have Pantani (Italy), Veronique (France), Heras (Spain), Basso (Italy), Ullrich (Germany), Mancebo (Spain), Hamilton, Armstrong, and Landis (USA) all implicated in one way or another in doping. I'm sure I've left out somebody, but it's not like it should come as a surprise that cyclists dope. Americans don't have a lock on doping practices or the podium either.

So why get so bent out of shape? The only thing that seems to have changed over the last 10-100 years or so is the level of sophistication and professionalism so many guys from so many countries bring to bear on their art. The UCI keeps blaming somebody else (WADA, the French Ministry of Sport) and quite simply allows the practice to continue.
 

by Rydr1 on Jul 31, 2006 2:07 AM EDT   0 recs

The point of the article
I linked above, was that the labs and anti doping agencies, and organizers are acting unscientifically and irresponsibly.

Best examples are Dick Pound and J.M. LeBlanc issuing opinions based on the l'Equipe allegations last year. It's their job (well it's Pound's job) to be fair and scientific, not fly off the handle based on flimsy, OUT OF PROTOCOL, evidence. Pound is in CHARGE of the protocol, for chrissakes.

by hughw on Jul 31, 2006 9:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Why do you think the Lab
is the source of the info?

The first lead I had was an American whom I doubt had any (zero) connection with the lab several days before Landis' lawyer started sniveling. The most likely sources I'd say are the UCI, Phonak, Landis himself, and WADA in about that order. The French Ministry of Sport is out of the loop by their own account.

Can you post a link with your source or are you just speculating?

The French, ASO, the Tour, the French Ministry of Sport, and the French press are doing everything they can to clean up their national event. Rather than admit their problem, the UCI in turn, turns around and blames them. The Tour is like the World Series and the Super Bowl in one to the French and dopers the world over are ruining it and the sport itself.

I for one find your insinuations against the lab very disturbing.

Since when are dopers allowed to commit fraud in secret? If you follow the UCI rules, the answer is always and forever. I don't care much about Lance's or Landis' or Heras' or Basso's or Ullrich's privacy anymore. In fact, I'm waiting impatiently for the names of about 50 more riders who are getting off the hook pretty easy so far.

by Rydr1 on Jul 31, 2006 2:47 AM EDT   0 recs

Ah well,
"Say it ain't so, Johnny, say it ain't so!"

It's looking more and more like somebody on Floyd's crew really misfired on his re-up dosage the morning of stage 17.

I mean, where are we going with this? Floyd naturally produces massive, truly epic, and heretofore unremarked-upon amounts of testosterone?

Or perhaps vindictive French officials squirted testosterone into his samples.

I'm not saying the above theories are impossible, but in light of cycling's history, they just seem less improbable than the plain old boring fact that Floyd took testosterone.

I am, of course, still very much hoping that B sample comes back negative. It's all been very disheartening.

by 72andSunny on Jul 31, 2006 2:56 AM EDT   0 recs

Also
I guess it should also most definitely be stated that L'Equipe is alleging that Floyd's urine sample was exogenous ... they don't cite a source, and I've seen nothing from the lab, UCI, Phonak or Floyd's camp.

So fingers still crossed. I think it's great, too, that many people on the board here have been so supportive of Floyd.

by 72andSunny on Jul 31, 2006 9:40 AM EDT   0 recs

He strikes me as a likeable guy
and he makes a fine TDF champ.  I'm hoping the b-sample turns up negative and he's cleared of all this.

by Mr Van P on Jul 31, 2006 9:47 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I can come to terms with it..
it's just very dissapointing.  I think the testing is legit.  Prone to human error?  sure, but conspiracies just seem ridiculous.  I can't imagine that any of the power's that be, are happy about possibly having to strip 2 of the last 3 GT winners of their titles.

by Mr Van P on Jul 31, 2006 12:55 PM EDT   0 recs

If the end result is a level playing field
then I'm optimistic as well.  The beauty of cycling, is the depth of the talent pool.   The sport isn't dependent on a handful of superstars like Baseball, and therefore they don't need to turn a blind eye to rules infractions.  

by Mr Van P on Jul 31, 2006 1:17 PM EDT   0 recs

And you know, it occurs to me---
how many of Lance's former lieutenants does this make implicated in a doping scandal? Hamilton, Heras, Landis ... more?

by 72andSunny on Jul 31, 2006 2:04 PM EDT   0 recs

Aye
I'm beginning to think that we need to look so some of the French teams to see a way out of this morass. They have been mocked in the US press for producing feeble results and whining about the tour at two speeds. Yet, if they have indeed managed to change the cycling culture while still producing a competitive product, that is the model to follow.

They have failed at the 'win at all costs' thing, but they have succeeded, w/ exceptions, at changing the culture and rules of acceptible practice.

It makes sense to stigamize riders who test positive, and it makes sense to stigmatize teams that continue to employ them. Not just teams w/ horrible records like Phonak, but teams that don't clearly take a stand.

An interview w/ Jonathan Vaughters makes me think that the French teams would make a good model for going forward:

"After the 1998 Tour scandal, the French teams really said, 'Whether the test is positive or not is not the point. We want to be clean, period.' When it came to a team like Credit Agricole, it was just like the doctors were literally checking to make sure you weren't doping," Vaughters said. "It was a refreshing attitude."

I asked him if he meant refreshing when compared with his previous team, U.S. Postal.

"Ah. Uh. Heh, heh," Vaughters said and then paused a moment. "It was refreshing compared with the general attitude of the cycling world that I have seen in my life," he said.

The quote is from an article about Dr. Prentice Steffan in the SF Weekly. Some would call the article and the writer part of the so-called witch hunt. http://www.sfweekly.com/Issues/2006-02-22/news/smith_full.html

by Koppenberg on Jul 31, 2006 2:36 PM EDT   0 recs

You're very right about
focusing on other teams; it is more dramatic to focus on Lance because he did take the TdeF seven times and fight tooth-and-nail against any and all doping charges.

I'm drifting off-topic here, but the reason I was thinking about Lance's lieutenants was because Daniel Coyle, the author of "Lance's War," was a guest on an American sports radio show.

After a long discussion about Floyd's current situation, the hosts asked Coyle point-blank if he thought Lance had ever doped.

Coyle hemmed and hawed for quite a bit, and then finally said he thought that one day Lance would have his own Mark McGwire moment.

(McGwire was a US baseball player and home-run hero who ultimately testified before US Congress that he had used [at the time legal] steroids.)

The fact that many of Lance's top lieutenants have since been busted on doping charges does not at all mean US Postal/Disco had an instituted policy of doping---but it certainly doesn't make Lance look good.

It has been, as I've written elsewhere, a completely discouraging and disheartening week for me as a cyclist and a cycling fan.

by 72andSunny on Jul 31, 2006 2:53 PM EDT   0 recs

Oops!
I accidentally posted this on the wrong thread.

Anyway, how about a few numbers?

"Cycling News" reports of "40 surprise tests in Hamburg":

"The UCI carried out 40 unannounced drug controls on the eve of the Vattenfall Cyclassics in Hamburg yesterday. At a pre-race press conference, German federation president Rudolf Scharping announced that all the tests were negative. Afterwards, the winner of the race, plus two additional riders, were also tested."

Out of around 175 riders they surprise tested nearly 25%. Not too shabby.

by 72andSunny on Jul 31, 2006 3:10 PM EDT   0 recs

Vrijman Report
Remember, Vrijman is a defense attorney for athletes who have tested positive. That is what he does, he raises objections to testing proceedures in order to get folks like Edgar Davids and Frank de Boer off the hook. Folks say that Dick Pound is unreliable because he see doping everywhere. Well, Vrijman was the anti-Pound the UCI pulled out to smooth things over.

by Koppenberg on Jul 31, 2006 4:47 PM EDT   0 recs

And we are enormously grateful
Thanks for taking the time to give us a perspective we otherwise wouldn't see. It is very much appreciated.

by Koppenberg on Jul 31, 2006 5:00 PM EDT   0 recs

That may be true, but
most people think that the criminal justice system is fair and just - until they encounter it . . .

by Sui Juris on Jul 31, 2006 8:17 PM EDT   0 recs

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