Mr. 60's non-denial denial . . .

by R Mc on Mar 27, 2007 9:40 AM EDT Comment 36 comments

Ok, so everybody knows that Riis denied allegations that he used epo and had a hematocrit of 64 (!!!) during the 96 TdF.

But why won't anyone point out the lameness of his "denial":

Riis, who retired in 1999 and now manages Team CSC, issued a statement Monday denying the allegations.

"I have never had a particularly close relation with Jef d'Hont and he has no validation for the allegations he is making. There will always be some one out there trying to make money by talking about the past and in my opinion that is probably, what he is trying to do here," Riis said. "This is probably not the first nor the last time these kinds of stories surface. To me, it's all in the past and I do not wish to be held accountable every time some one finds it interesting to bring up some ten-year-old story. I truly believe the future is much more important than the past. I want to be judged on the work I'm doing with my team today, and the results we achieve - that is what's important to me."

Because, if you actually read his statement carefully, it DOES NOT DENY the allegations. Instead, it a). resorts to an ad hominem attack on the accuser and b). assumes that there's some sort of statute of limitations that means that he no longer has to "held accountable" to a ten-year-old story." That is hardly a categorical denial.

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Now I'm no fan of Bjarne

but a Hcrit of 64 is physiologically improbable. There are serious consequences of having more than a 50% crit in one's blood, like strokes, limb loss and organ ischemia. Normal hemoglobin is 15 for a hematocrit of 45. 64? That's a hemoglobin of 21!!! I don't buy it.

I'll beat you like a red-headed step child...

by blueyedfisch on Mar 27, 2007 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It probably would have killed him

and the rumors that begat his nickname were certainly exaggerated. I gather that many pro cyclists are quite credulous and rumors are rife in the peloton*. But that doesn't mean there wasn't truth behind the rumors and his non-denial here does nothing to dispel that notion.

*For example, here's an incredible (as in I can't quite believe it) story as told by Saul Raisin: "So Jens rolls up to me during the race, rests his hand on the hump on my back [a deformity of his spine] and says 'What iz deese?'" Without missing a beat Saul tells him it's his third lung. Jens cries "No! Its illegal, isn't it? It can't be!" But Saul assured him it was true. So Jens goes and tells everyone in the peloton about Saul's third lung, and eventually Saul had to tell him he was only kidding. " http://www.nyvelocity.com/content.php?id=1285

by ghisallo on Mar 27, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Wow I almost spit my lunch all over the keyboard. Funny stuff there.

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by Clydesdale on Mar 27, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jens Voigt?

by NE Observer on Mar 27, 2007 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

According to Raisin, yes

I wonder if the joke wasn't the other way around though. Voigt makes a show of believing it and Raisin falls for it. Or maybe the knock on his head has jumbled his memories. Anyways, it's good for a laugh.

by ghisallo on Mar 27, 2007 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where does the i64%

reading come from? Was it official? Word of mouth?

by NE Observer on Mar 27, 2007 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oops, 64% (no i)

by NE Observer on Mar 27, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's the problem

this is rumor, neh? Back in those days, innuendo was the closest thing to a fact.

Got a problem? Va fa Napoli!

by Chris... on Mar 27, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reading the his "denial"

sounds rather like a certain someone bashing a certain French newspaper..

Vlaenderen die Leu

by Mr Van P on Mar 27, 2007 10:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Actually

this is straight out of the Mark McGwire handbook. Sorry Mac fans... but this is bad.

Got a problem? Va fa Napoli!

by Chris... on Mar 27, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

What was Mac's line when the congressmen asked him if he used steroids? "I'm not here to talk about the past."

by socal on Mar 28, 2007 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Tell me if I sound ridiculous

but I always get the feeling that Riis wants to come right out and tell what went on back then, but doesn't because he knows there would be no coming back from such a confession. Maybe if he was pushed into a corner we could get a Jack Nicholson "you can't handle the truth ! "-type outburst from Riis.

by Jens on Mar 27, 2007 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That's why there needs to be a blanket immunity

as suggested by Paul Sherwen at one point. This would allow Mr 60% and any and ALL American TdF winners to come clean.

"It never gets easier, you just goat faster." -- Greg LeMond

by ELVISGOAT on Mar 27, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think there should be an amnesty

for the dopers of the 90s. And they should come out en masse and discuss what happened. Get it behind the sport instead of having allegations come out in drips.

-K-

by KevinK on Mar 27, 2007 11:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

yeah... what he said

"It never gets easier, you just goat faster." -- Greg LeMond

by ELVISGOAT on Mar 27, 2007 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The only problem is

that a lot of these guys are associated with teams, who's sponsers wouldn't want the bad press. Maybe if Riis, Brunyeel, Museeuw, Virenque, Lance (oops..typo..) etc were all out of the sport, they could discuss what they know.

Vlaenderen die Leu

by Mr Van P on Mar 27, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Even out of the sport

they are still making money for someone, they've all sold out and will stay mum. There's always someone to pay.

I'll beat you like a red-headed step child...

by blueyedfisch on Mar 27, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah...

If not with a team, then with a prominent self-branded bike manufacturer.

"It never gets easier, you just goat faster." -- Greg LeMond

by ELVISGOAT on Mar 27, 2007 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or

Media outlet, Investment firm, pharma, you name it

I'll beat you like a red-headed step child...

by blueyedfisch on Mar 27, 2007 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kabuki dance

Everyone believes that these guys were on the juice. I think we'd have to be pretty naive to think otherwise.

I guess the sponsors demand the denials, and possibly the public does, too.

-K-

by KevinK on Mar 27, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree, It's not so easy

Because amnesty or no amnesty, if those guys confessed they would be thrown out of the sport one way or another.Therefore their only real option is to shut up.

by Jens on Mar 27, 2007 12:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I guess

we're going to have to wait for death bed confessions.

Let the waiting begin...

by Hons on Mar 27, 2007 12:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

A quick poll

If we assume that Basso and Hamilton were involved with Fuentes. Who among you believe Bjarne Riis had no knowledge of what they were up to?

by Jens on Mar 27, 2007 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not me

Got a problem? Va fa Napoli!

by Chris... on Mar 27, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

They never ask

but they know.

by Punctured on Mar 27, 2007 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am of the opinion

that Hamilton could be the thread that unravels the whole ball of yarn. The Paper Trail evidence against him doping seems to be very solid, just not acted upon yet.

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by Clydesdale on Mar 27, 2007 1:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I find myself thinking that this is a

tempest in a teacup.

Yes, Bjarne fell short of acknowledging that the claims were true. BUT Don't forget that the medical records for the entire Geweiss team were leaked to the press for the 94-95 season. Everybody knows that in December of 1994, Riis' hematocrit was 41.1. In May of 2005 it was 56.3.

http://cyclisme.dopage.free.fr/actualite/1999-03-13-lesoir.htm

The Mr. 60% nickname is earned. So I'm not sure what would be the value of Riis'acknowledging it.

He isn't claiming that he didn't dope, he's saying that the past is past. The present is what matters.

Do we really want to attack the man who brought Rasmus Damsgaard & his program to the sport? Riis took his biggest and most vocal critic, gave him access to his riders all season long, and made sure that everything was transparent and independent.

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that saying Riis took EPO is like saying Pantani, Zulle, or ONCE took EPO. We know it. It should be acknowledged, but today is what matters.

Just like w/ the Lefevere allegations: what matters is not whether he used amphetamines back in the day, but whether his team used them last week.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Mar 27, 2007 3:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

darn typos

Riis' hematocrit was 56.3 in May of 1995. I'd be very surprised if it was that high in 2005. D'oh.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Mar 27, 2007 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Riis intended this as a denial

then I would agree that it's a lame one. But, it doesn't sound to me like he was trying to deny anything. He's basically just saying, "So what? That's ancient history"

It's not as clean as an outright admission of doping, but do we really need an admission of doping from Riis? Doesn't everyone pretty much accept the fact that Riis doped in the 90s? As I see it, Riis is being as honest as he can be without jeopardizing his current team. And, since his team is one of the few at the top level of the sport that seems to be making a genuine effort to eliminate doping within the squad, I'd rather see Riis continue what he's doing than make a full confession to something that might hinder the good work he's doing now.

I prefer Riis's approach to that of a former rider/team manager who persists in taking the denial route while apparently doing nothing to stop current doping on his team. (Not that I have anyone in particular in mind. ;-) )

Eleven Nation Army: Ready to get rich off the other teams' lunch money

by Tifosa on Mar 27, 2007 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He did it

Who cares, I know jouranalist do. Thats how they keep all of us talking. Makes for good conversation on training rides though with my riding buddies. We change our mind every third ride.

Where is this paper trail to Hamilton? He has that preppy nice guy image and I would like to form an opinion about him, one way or the other.

Riis did it. I'm ok with that considering everyone else did.

Suffering is good for the soul.

by CannonDowell on Mar 27, 2007 4:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The paper trail

I am referring to are the copies of faxes that look pretty incriminating that came out during the early stages of Puerto. That were complete with names and phone numbers.

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by Clydesdale on Mar 27, 2007 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the story on the Tyler Hamilton paper trail

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/jun26news2

El Pais turned its attention away from Spanish cyclists in its first big article on Monday, "The transfusions and the dollars of Tyler Hamilton". In September 2004, Hamilton tested positive for a homologous blood transfusion after winning the time trial at the Vuelta a España. He also returned a positive A sample for a homologous transfusion after winning the Olympic games time trial a month previously in August. His B sample was inadvertently frozen, and no result could be determined from it. Although he is still in possession of his Olympic gold medal, he was stripped of his Vuelta stage win and suspended until September 22, 2006, despite appealing to the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

According to El Pais, the documents seized by the Spanish civil guard during Operacion Puerto show that Hamilton was not as innocent as he claimed. It's alleged that he not only received blood transfusions, but also a full doping program involving EPO, anabolics, growth hormone and IGF-1.

The paper claims that among the files of Dr Eufemiano Fuentes and Jose Merino Batres, are some details of Hamilton's financial dealings in 2002 and 2003, including a copy of a fax sent to his wife Haven to a hotel in Gerona, where he lived. On the fax, it's shown that he had paid €31,200 with €11,840 still owing: €35,000 was for the medical program, and €8,040 was for the medication.

The doctors' files allegedly consisted of two pages. In the first, a calendar of the racing season is laid out from November to October, with the races that the rider wanted to do well in being marked along with the medication that he should take. The markings were in the so-called "Sanskrit of Eufemiano", a notation system of substances, doses, and procedures. Before the 2003 season, Dr Fuentes indicated that Hamilton should start taking EPO from December 21, with 2000 units daily, up until Christmas Eve, and then on alternate days until January 9. On the 14th of January, before his first training camp with CSC, he was instructed to withdraw blood. On January 24, he was to start with anabolics. In March, after racing had started, he was to take HMG - a hormone used by menopausal women - to mask the anabolics, as well as taking growth hormone and insulin.

The second page of the file allegedly showed that he won Liège-Bastogne-Liège six days after a double transfusion of blood, won the Tour de Romandie shortly afterwards, and prepared for the Tour by not racing in May and taking anabolics and EPO. He then raced only the Dauphiné Libéré in June - completely anonymously, and didn't even start the final stage. At the time, he claimed to be suffering from stomach problems all week, but El Pais alleged that according to Dr Fuentes files, it was during another period of blood extraction. In the final lead up to the Tour, he was to take more growth hormone and re-infuse the blood, as well as doing so on the first rest day of the race.

by socal on Mar 28, 2007 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cool

Somthing new for me to look at!

I am just having a hard time calling him guilty. You know the whole dog thing and all, shucks.

Suffering is good for the soul.

by CannonDowell on Mar 27, 2007 5:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Rundown on it

Here

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by Clydesdale on Mar 27, 2007 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is what I like about the Podium Cafe

People being able to comment on a pretty controversial topic without resorting to namecalling and going totally ballistic. Personally , after the events of 2006 I try not to focus on the doping issue to much. All you can really do as a fan is support and applaud those who make an effort to move the sport away from the old ways of doing things and hope that the new generation of riders and managers realize that cycling needs to rid itself of the old structures if it is to survive.

by Jens on Mar 27, 2007 6:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

That's it

you're out of line Jens. We're taking away your leader's jersey...

We had some lively discussions last summer but only one or two people got heated up, for unimportant reasons. I suspect something close to 100% of the people here love Cycling, so we come to the same place of concern, even if we take varied routes of cynicism, hope, or what have you. I know that level of respectful dialogue on the subjects that matter keeps me running this site. Well, and the racing.

This is the distinction I've tried to make between us and Cycle Sport's "I support drug free sport" campaign, which I find way too limited to be constructive. It's not about whether you're for or against drugs -- it's about identifying the sport's REAL problems: the perverse incentives for riders, teams, coaches, etc., and trying to change the rules and the culture to stop the nonsense. We air the dirtiest laundry here because we have to.

Got a problem? Va fa Napoli!

by Chris... on Mar 27, 2007 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs