What if Rasmussen is telling the truth?

by hughw on Jul 26, 2007 7:13 PM EDT Comment 84 comments

Rasmussen is sticking to his story that he was in Mexico in June. He says Davide Cassani is just mistaken and saw someone else.

What if he's telling the truth?

It ought to be easy enough to verify that he was in Mexico.

Rabobank's deRooy claims Ras admitted he was in Italy. But since Ras is sticking to his story, I wonder whether Prudhomme's pressure on Rabobank to do something tempted deRooy into telling a little stretcher to justify his action.

If Ras is telling the truth, then we have a situation where a rider in compliance with the regulations was ejected from the Tour. While wearing the yellow jersey. Based only on an unverified report by a cycling announcer.

Why can't deRooy tell us his unspecified "new information"?

This whole episode reeks. Chicken was unpopular with fans and with riders. "Chicken" is an unflattering name people used as a proxy for their vague dislike of the guy. We didn't like his lone, 100 km breaks. He didn't seem like a team rider, or a classic Tour winner.

People react to appearances, and Ras is ugly. He looks like a plucked chicken. During this tour I found myself imagining him with a monocle, cigarette holder, riding crop, and German officer's hat of any war since 1871. I think people have this primordial revulsion to him.

It shows in the posts here on PC. Most people are so glad to get rid of him, they don't care whether there's any actual substance to the accusations.

I'm willing to believe he lied. Just show me the evidence.

And I do believe the bovine hemoglobin story from five years ago.

But I'm a process guy. And there's been no process here at all. Just a mob.

Oh, and if Ras is telling the truth: I hope he gets a killer Dutch lawyer and goes after Rabobank, the sponsor, for ending his career and his near certain TdF victory. Good thing for him they're a Netherlands bank with deep, deep pockets.

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FWIW

Chicken is NOT a derogatory name, until he disgraced it. He got the name back when he rode for CSC and some of the team were watching TV in the hotel. Apparently there is a kid's cartoon called "Bear and Chicken" w/ a big bear and little chicken as the main characters. No one remembers who they called "Bear" (this was before Cancellara came over from Fassa) but for whatever reason the name "Chicken" stuck w/ Rassmussen.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 26, 2007 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Chicken

As far as I know, he has been called Chicken since the days he was on the Gary Fisher Mountain Bike Team.

One memorable ad had the team half naked. And it had Chicken on it.

Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Jul 26, 2007 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yup, I was wrong

it was long before the CSC days:

Now, about your nickname 'Chicken'... "It's actually not because of my legs... actually, it doesn't have anything to do with my anatomy at all [laughs]. It's an old story that goes back to 1994 when I was in Mont Saint-Anne for the mountain bike World Cup.
"There was a Danish cartoon on TV about a bear and a chicken, and at the time, there was another guy there, and his nickname was 'bear'. The other Danish riders who were in the apartment where we were staying were sitting there talking, saying, 'Well now we only miss the chicken!', and at that moment, I came in the door... they just looked at each other and it seemed there was an immediate agreement that I would be the chicken!"

From a cyclingnews 2004 interview w/ Rassmussen
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=features/interviews/michael_rasmussen04

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 26, 2007 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've posted it before, here's the original Kylling

Chicken is the guy on the left , he's the sidekick of "Bamse" (Bear)on a kids show thats been on danish TV for 20 years or so.

by Jens on Jul 27, 2007 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jesus!

Thought I was having an acid flashback for a minute. And college was 20 years or so ago............coincidence?

I think not.

"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. "

by Drew on Jul 27, 2007 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And thanks to YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Vvb2kT7RQ (those of you who understand Danish may prefer to start at part 1)

by Monty. on Jul 27, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

(speechless)

:-O

"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. "

by Drew on Jul 27, 2007 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

just read this little gem and had to share

from CN:

His team-mate Boogerd was clearly annoyed with the way Rasmussen left the Tour after all the work the team had done for him. "We didn't talk with each other. He didn't dare to come, I guess he proved to be a chicken," Boogerd said sarcastically just before the peloton rolled away from Pau.

by Scott. on Jul 26, 2007 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Process"?

This isn't a court case, Ras is a contract-based professional athlete, no doubt that contract has stipulations for immediate termination. You show up for work drunk, I don't have to have you take a breathalyzer, you're fired. Especially if you tell me you're drunk, never mind later you sober up and decide you weren't drunk.

by 72andSunny on Jul 26, 2007 7:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Also

Rassmussen had the race in the bag. Rabobank (the sponsor) had just gained the absolutly most valuable promotional prize in the whole damn sport.

Even if we assume that Rassmussen cheated, he got away with it. No failed tests, no third missed test for either organization, he was completely in the clear and had just put a big enough lead to survive the ITT. Rassmussen had won the race.

Rabobank decided that his lies were sufficient that they'd rather abandon the single most valuable marketing prize available to them then to have their name associated with Rassmussen.

He lied to them, and they couldn't tolerate it. It isn't required that they share their evidence, cell phone records and credit card bills aren't public documents. Follow the money. It would be in their financial interest to win the Tour de France.

Why give that up?

Some may suggest that Rabobank would surrender the most valuable prize in all of cycling simply to screw the honest and wronged Michael Rassmussen. It is technically possible. It just fails the sniff test.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 26, 2007 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It is naive

to suggest that Rabobank simply did this on their own, to "do the right thing."

by Toyota on Jul 26, 2007 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not suggesting that this

was a disinterested, selfless act.

Rabobank acted in Rabobank's best interest. No doubt. But given that they are bankers, why do you think the sponsors would choose to randomly screw some poor sod instead of reap the richest reward in the business?

It is the team's call and they decided that their reasons for sending Rassmussen home outweighed the advantages of winning the Tour de France. Later, they decided that the evidence they had of being decieved warrented firing Rassmussen. If he really believes he is wronged, he can contest this in court and we'll see the evidence. Until then, in order to believe Rassmussen is telling the truth about Mexico we have to believe that Rabobank is soooooooo evil they will give up winning the Tour de France just to ruin the life of one of their riders.

I just find that too much of a stretch.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 26, 2007 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good points

but Rabobank surely knew that their "win" was turning into an abysmal dungbomb.

Rasmussen received boos louder than anything that Armstrong ever got, and his charisma made you wish he was as quiet as Gert Jan Theunisse used to be. Hardly a marketing coup, in other words.

I think that they had been looking for a reason to get rid of ~:< for a few days, at least. Here's hoping that they indeed have better evidence than just Cassani's say-so.

by R Mc on Jul 26, 2007 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ha! You put it more succincty

than I did below.

by hughw on Jul 26, 2007 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It is just so much of a stretch

The money is always the bottom line.

That is why I find Rassmussen's dismissal such a positive sign.

Rabobank came to this decision on their own. They were not forced to by the ASO or the UCI. They decided that it simply was a bad business deal to win the tour in exchange for being associated w/ a tainted rider.

If the sport is going to change cultures, they aren't going to do it by force. History has shown that outsized penalties and bans are no more effective in sport than the Rockefeller Drug Laws are in New York.

Money is the bottom line of the sport, and if the sponsors start to realize that winning by skirting the rules is less profitable than following the rules, the money will start to be invested in riders of good reputation rather than those who can manage to beat the authorities by any means necessary.

Rabobank voted with their pocketbook, they voted for "clean riding" meaning more than "I've never failed a drug test".

This is a clear improvement.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 26, 2007 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wanna know the funny thing?

I actually was starting to like the guy, once I muscled past the gag reflex coming from his arrogance. Good climber.

Now I am going to have to vote with my remote again. I'm not up for another leap of faith over to Contador, especially with a clear link to Fuentes (but no investigation) and an endorsement coming from Bruyneel. Maybe another year and we'll have more information or maybe Contador will be allowed to keep the yellow jersey on a technicality or something.

I kinda hope Evans wins. I probably won't be watching. I am so sick of this sh..

by Rydr1 on Jul 26, 2007 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Spanish Courts

I am new here as well but I thought the Spanish courts had cleared Contador of the Fuentes connection. Am I wrong?

by ZoeRochelle on Jul 27, 2007 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nope

He's been cleared. Or he wouldn't be allowed to race.

Got a problem? Va fa Napoli!

by Chris... on Jul 27, 2007 1:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

UCI cleared him too

And it was the UCI that mistakenly put him on the list before last year's tour.

I have a hunch that the mistaken connection will persist and will be asserted for throughout Contador's career even though the mistake was corrected just a couple of weeks after the mistake was made.

That's not a stigma anyone would want to have especially at the outset of his career when he's still proving himself on the international stage.

by sawgrass on Jul 27, 2007 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the boos

were the real reason Rabobank pulled the plug on Rasmussen. When they saw him getting bood both at the start of the race and, especially, the finish as he was winning the stage, I think they realized they had to drop him like a hot potato...

by Le Comte on Jul 27, 2007 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Take away the "lying" accusation

and you're left with a TdF leader with bad publicity around four missed OOC tests, and the potentially even more damning blood products story from 2002. Rabobank was looking at the prospect of some really bad, high profile publicity, were he to win. But with no new information, they had no reason to fire him. So, maybe they grasped at any straw. If they did that, we can all understand why, but it's not fair, and it would be they who are lying, not Ras. I mean, what's sauce for the chicken... for these highly "ethical" teams like Rabo.

by hughw on Jul 26, 2007 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

also, also

deRooy might not be telling us his unspecified "new information" in anticipation of a potential chicken suit.

by Scott. on Jul 26, 2007 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Firing a Pro Tour rider

who's within a hairsbreadth of winning the Tour de France and becoming a valuable advertising pitchman worth tens of millions, is different from firing an employee at your bakery or whatever, who shows up drunk.

by hughw on Jul 27, 2007 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know, I know, but I was responding

to the idea of "due process," a term that got tossed around a lot with Floyd's case, which is a wee bit misleading, as it implies that this is a criminal case where one side has to provide heaps of evidence before acting.

It's not, it's at-will employment, which means in the state of California, at least, you can be fired at any time for any reason, barring discrimination.

The most damning bit for the Chicken is that Cycling News had reported he'd confessed to his DS that he'd been in Italy.

Koppenberg makes a great point, too --- man, how badly did Rabo feel they might be stung, publicity-wise, to fire the yellow jersey days before he would have won the Tour?

As far as his likeability, and no offense to any Danes out there, the Chicken's not cold, arrogant, or strange --- he simply appears that way because he's DANISH.

by 72andSunny on Jul 27, 2007 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm right with ya

if anything, cycling has been strangely reluctant to unceremoniously shit-can riders and teams who were reputedly doping.

The teams should have a broad ability to do that in their contracts with the riders. The race organizations should be able to ban teams for doping worries.

Also, the doom and gloom talk about the end of these guys careers due to doping allegations, is way overblown; the rage and grudges apparently don't stick.

Rasmussen is in the strange position of probably being a doper, but not getting caught. If he addresses the issues openly and reasonably, even if it results in a suspension, I think he could get back into the sport without too many problems.

He might have to fess up on various issues, and then commit to a stringent, public anti doping program to regain credibility. But I don't think it's an impossible scenario.

-K-

by KevinK on Jul 27, 2007 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Contracts

I would love it if I could get my hands on something resembling a typical rider contract. I'm tired of speculating @ what's in there. All we know is that the riders don't have any innate right to a team kit or a Tour start. But between the UCI's licenses, the Tour's agreements, and the riders' deals, there could be plenty of enforceable entanglements.

Got a problem? Va fa Napoli!

by Chris... on Jul 27, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

you and me both

I can't imagine that one or two haven't slipped out in arbitration or court battles. Unfortunately (for this functionally monolingual dunce), such contracts are probably in German or Italian, and thus beyond my Google-fu.

by Sui Juris on Jul 27, 2007 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

too obvious...?

if, as he claims, rasmussen was in mexico the whole time, wouldn't he be able to demonstrate this by producing his passport? you need one of those to travel between mexico and the e.u., correct?

by punk monk on Jul 26, 2007 8:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

too obvious...?

if, as he claims, rasmussen was in mexico the whole time, wouldn't he be able to demonstrate this by producing his passport? you need one of those to travel between mexico and the e.u., correct?

by punk monk on Jul 26, 2007 8:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

check out today's live thread,

there was a decent back-n-forth convo about this

by Scott. on Jul 26, 2007 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for reminding me

Kevin posted a bit from Martin Dugard's blog that suggested the source of Rabobank's evidence was credit card receipts and cell phone records.

http://community.active.com/blogs/MartinDugard/2007/07/26/long-done-gone

Of course, the real question remains, did Rabobank know Rassmussen was in the Dolomites and are only throwing him under the bus because he got found out, or do they have a right to claim betrayal?

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by Koppenberg on Jul 26, 2007 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apparently not..

Not if Cassani is to be believed.

DC gave an interview to Der Spiegel, in which he explained how all this went down. For those who aren't RAI tifosi, Cassani is co-commentator on Italian television. He's an ex-pro who does the analysis and "color."

Anyway, during one of the mountain stages - the Galibier, I think - they were calling the race, and Ras was doing his climbing thing. Cassani put on his analyst hat and started talking about the Chicken. One of the things he said is that Rasmussen is really dedicated to training. To illustrate this point, he said he saw Ras out on the Marmolada (sorry, that totally isn't spelled right) training in June (DC gave the date, the 13th, I think it was), and it was horrendous weather, but Ras was training anyway. (DC was there shooting video for his series on the climbs of Italy)

A couple days after this broadcast, Danish tv called up Cassani and said, what days did you see Rasmussen? What was that you said? So, Cassani confirmed. He said he was pretty uncomfortable with being in the middle of this shitstorm. Then, Rabobank called him up, and wanted to know about this, also. And he confirmed that he had in fact seen Rasmussen out training. Apparently, DC actually talked to him, so it's unlikely that he mistook who it was.

So I think actually that Rabo didn't know what was going down. They knew about the missed tests, of course, but not that Ras was in Italy.

(Sorry for the long comment.)

by gavia on Jul 26, 2007 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for these details

which I have not seen in the English language press. I give Cassani's claim a lot of credence. I still withhold final judgment because if Ras really was in Mexico it should be easy for him to demonstrate.

by hughw on Jul 27, 2007 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I second those thanks

...and want to affirm how valuable Podium Cafe's diaries and comments are because they canvass so many different sources of information.

And it also provides original points of view that are well-informed and sometimes based on expert knowledge.

I have about half-dozen cycling websites bookmarked that I open all at once (using Firefox) every morning and PodiumCafe is the first of those bookmarks. It's a good place to start! </effusive-appreciation>

by sawgrass on Jul 27, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One more comment

There is no reason for Cassani to lie about this or to insert himself into this controversy. He is very reticent about doping issues, and looks pretty uncomfortable whenever it comes up. I think it unlikely he would have mistaken Rasmussen for anyone else. He - Ras - was wearing kit, and Cassani id's riders for a living. And accurately, at that. We're not exactly talking Phil L here ;-)

by gavia on Jul 26, 2007 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

roger that

thanks, scott - and sorry about the double, everyone...

by punk monk on Jul 26, 2007 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

passports and visas

As a European Union citizen, there are no travel stamps between countries, if I am not mistakenm

However, to travel to Mexico, there would definitely be an entry stamp and an exit stamp in his passport.

The reason he hasn't produced it as proof yet, is because it doesn't exist. Most likely he will have lost it by now. Anyone with a connection to the Danish passport office?

The whole "he is confusing me with someone else" defense is sounds like crap. Hell, anyone one of us who writes on the site would recognize Chicken on the road, I imagine more so, an ex-racer turned commentator. Too bad Phill Liggett or Paul Sherwin didn't see him!

Racing for Victory and Free Beer!

by DemonCats on Jul 26, 2007 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ugly chicken and a guilty conscience

I pondered that over the past couple of days.

In different circumstances, Rasmussen's physical and character attributes could have been experienced as charming. If none of the dopage stuff had come out, the story could have been how clever Rasmussen was and how strong he was. It would have been the little guy pulling the upset.

I think when the dopage tide turned, though, his physical and character attributes fit into a completely different story where he was the perfect villain. He stole the yellow jersey from the race, and from his rightful leader, Menchov.

I have mixed feelings that he was bounced. I feel bad for him on a human level. But I am also 99.9% sure that he used "modern training methods" to prepare for the tour, and was essentially stealing the race and all its prizes.

Also, I don't think his career is over. I think the sport would welcome him back if he returned in the right circumstances. Basso, for example, will get back in the sport.

Rasmussen's future is in his hands, I think.

-K-

by KevinK on Jul 26, 2007 9:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Agree on all points except

Basso is loved and will get a job, but Ras is hated and won't.

by hughw on Jul 27, 2007 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One thing I haven't heard is...

How the Chicken doping in the Dolomites in June is helping him win the Tour in July. Steroids last, but what else can you take in June that helps you in July but is undetectable to modern tests? That's the one thing that grates about this whole thing. The Chicken hasn't flunked a test.

by Tiki on Jul 26, 2007 10:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Lots of stuff

EPO clears in three days - ie, it isn't testable after three days - but its effects last 4-6 weeks. Mid-June would be a really good time to do a round just in time for the Tour. No one would be the wiser, unless they were watching his blood values, like Damsgard is doing over at CSC.

The other thing is that if he does a nice cocktail of EPO, a light 'roid, and some heavy T, he can train far, far harder than he could clean. So, he hides out, does a hard block of training with recovery dope, then comes into the Tour flying. Same as a normal taper - go really hard, then rest - but enhanced. The month before the Tour would be just about right to hit a nice bit of form on the Galibier.

by gavia on Jul 26, 2007 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't suppose

you have a link to the fact that EPO flushes out after a few days but is effective for several weeks? That would be a handy link to have...

by Le Comte on Jul 27, 2007 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ack...

No, I don't. Sorry, just part of the jumbled mess of cycling crap floating around in my brain.

Koppenberg might, he's the master at tracking down info of all sorts. Hey K, if you're in the house, you got anything?

by gavia on Jul 27, 2007 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm, not a lot of time to dig

My first thought was to find the Dr. Kurt Moosburger (not a typo ;-) ) interview. Moosburger was Jaksche doctor, among others, and gave a frank interview to CN after OP hit the fan.

EPO, which enhances the blood's ability to carry oxygen, is also often used to aid cyclists training for races like the Tour de France. The body's blood-oxygen capacity, which is usually genetically determined, speeds up metabolism. Moosburger states that while the average person's carrying capacity is about 40 milliliters per kilo per minute and top athlete's are at about 60 milliliters per kilo, those who wish to truly compete in the Tour must be up at about 85 to 90 milliliters per kilo. As with testosterone, doctors and trainers have found ways to dope riders with EPO, without the drug revealing itself during tests.
"Before the EPO test, for example, athletes injected 4,000 units three times per week. Now they inject a small dose almost daily," says Moosburger.

from: http://www.stellarmag.com/newsFeatures/doping_cycling_Tour_de_France_456098

For those looking for more clinical info, there is this:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T57-4MWPSKX-2&_user=137179&_c overDate=04%2F30%2F2007&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000 011439&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=137179&md5=7407a97b9c04cee5fae31e216da3b3ad

(Note, I'm behind a link resolver w/ a good subscription to scientific journals, so this may not work for folks outside of an academic network. No time to test.)

Money quote:

Following WADA's positivity criteria, the IEF based urinary EPO test enabled to determine that the detection window after a single subcutaneous injection of Darbepoietin-α (40 μg of ARANESP® injected) is close to 7 days, that is to say approximately two times more than for rHuEPO-β (4000 IU of Recormon® injected). The detection window can be different from one subject to another, because the actual positivity criteria take into consideration in someway the endogenous EPO production rate which differs enormously from one subject to another. That means, all subjects with a naturally elevated or stimulated EPO production rate (altitude training, hypoxic tent,...) have a reduced detection window for bone marrow stimulators such as Darbepoietin-α.

Basically, Darbopoeiting (Aranesp) has a detection window of 7 days, or twice that of regular EPO.

From:
Detection window of Darbepoetin-α following one single subcutaneous injection

Séverine Lamona, Neil Robinsona, Patrice Mangina and Martial Saugy; Clinica Chimica Acta
Volume 379, Issues 1-2, April 2007, Pages 145-149
Received 9 November 2006; revised 8 January 2007; accepted 8 January 2007. Available online 24 January 2007.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 27, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting bit

was that using an altitude tent or training at altitude reduces the detection window for EPO and Aranesp.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 27, 2007 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also

Check out the reference list for more peer-reviewed research on EPO and detection.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 27, 2007 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry to be so prolific on this

but I found a goldmine that everyone can access:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2005/avoid_positive

The urine test for EPO is currently undergoing improvements, but it has been used in sport since the 2000 Olympics and was introduced in cycling in 2001. It uses electrophoresis to detect a standard injection of EPO for up to three days (72 hours), by means of comparing the quantities of "basic isoforms" of certain proteins in a urine sample.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 27, 2007 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Damn, you 're good :-)

Nice work!

by gavia on Jul 27, 2007 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

<blushes>

You could almost think I did this for a living. Heh.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 27, 2007 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought you

shushed people and responded to National Security Letters for a living. . .

by Sui Juris on Jul 27, 2007 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those are my colleagues in Public Libraries

<snooty voice>I work in academe.<snooty voice>

I do own multiple tweed jackets, but I haven't earned my elbow patches yet. ;-)

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 27, 2007 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Uhh . . .

I might have some questions related for you . . . or, colleague . . .

In my research I've stumbled across some quotations that Sophia Peabody Hawthorne copied into her commonplace books and journals during the 1830s. Some of them she helpfully attributed, some I recognized, a few turned up in google books.

Any advice for someone who hasn't had a research and bib. class in over 20 years?

by R Mc on Jul 27, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure

send me details to infoliberty (at) gmail (dot) com

I'm off tomorrow to the S. Oregon coast for a week, but will look at your stuff when I get back.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 27, 2007 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

Do I qualify for graduate credits just for hosting this discussion? This blog just keeps on paying off.

Got a problem? Va fa Napoli!

by Chris... on Jul 27, 2007 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

will do next week--

(And I should point out that the school where I teach does NOT possess a high powered library staff--they're real good at ILL, though)

by R Mc on Jul 27, 2007 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What's your research, RMc?

Interested because I loved "The Peabody Sisters," by Megan Marshall.

by NE Observer on Jul 27, 2007 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

me too . . .

shortish version (for an academic):

I'm cooking up a long project tentatively titled "Power at the Threshold," which will study how 19th century writers started using metaphors and ideas drawn from the new natural phenomena that humans were able to control (think Henry Adams Virgin and Dynamo if you like).

Sophia (and to some degree Elizabeth Peabody) fits in because of how she fused ideas about the solar system and the forces (and what they thought about these then differs slightly from now) that held it together as a metaphor for human familial and social relationships (she called 'em "soul systems") then communicated that fusion to her husband, who drew on it to some extent in Scarlet Letter (which is an emotional capacitor or battery . . .) and most thoroughly in House of the Seven Gables.

by R Mc on Jul 28, 2007 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No apologies necessary

in fact, thank you very much!

by Le Comte on Jul 27, 2007 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

EPO stimulates red blood cell production

I don't have a link to the science (tried to find one) but the idea is that the red blood cells produced by the body in response to taking EPO are viable for a lot longer than the EPO persists. So the "effective for several weeks" part is refering to the red blood cells produced by the body in response to the EPO, not to the EPO itself.

Team Bobke's Spleen - Who wants to be stranded with a flat tire?

by Jimbo... on Jul 27, 2007 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cumulative Effect

There's also a cumulative effect (I am guessing from the random selection of stories I've read about this over the past couple of years) with this approach to training.

If a rider is juicing with EPO and recovery hormones, he is basically training with superhuman ability to recover and push harder. So, over a year's time, if a rider is using a prepatore program--racing and training daily and weekly with EPO and hormones, he'll end up at a much higher level by tour time (presumably) than if he'd gone organic and trained in hemp shorts and hemp rope sandals.

Blood doping, I've read, provides a big, immediate boost at some point during an event like the Tour. Vino's the prime example of that, except he used someone else's blood---yuck. So maybe his program fell apart somehow. Maybe the blood bags couldn't be transported safely.

It's basically time-shifting blood production from the Dauphine to the middle of the Tour. So during the Dauphine, a rider sucks, and in the Tour he suddenly kicks ass.

-K-

by KevinK on Jul 27, 2007 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

Training with "enhancement" makes the heavy training that much heavier. More k's, higher intensity. Fatigue and recovery are pretty much the limiting factors to training hard on the bike. Nothing like a little extra help to push that boundary outward.

It takes a day or two for blood doping to kick in, so in Vino's case, he probably did it on the rest day.

by gavia on Jul 27, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely

No argument that you can train harder, recover faster, etc... at the most basic physiological level, EPO or a transfusion of red blood cells achieve the same basic physiological result, which is to simply increase the amount of oxygen your blood can transport. If your blood can move more oxygen to your muscles, you can push your muscles harder for longer before you go anaerobic. Even if you don't train harder, anyone who gets a transfusion of RBCs will simply be able to go harder for longer than they could before the transfusion. If you take EPO, it takes your body time to produce red blood cells, but the benefit is immediate for a transfusion. The second you finish the transfusion and pull the needle out, you could hop on your bike and go harder.

Team Bobke's Spleen - Who wants to be stranded with a flat tire?

by Jimbo... on Jul 27, 2007 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But

I thought that the "day or two" was just what Jorg said. I can't see any reason medically why it shouldn't kick in straight away. It's not as if the new red blood cells behave like a bunch of cruise ship tourists dropped on the quayside, standing around and staring at the sky.

by Monty. on Jul 27, 2007 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bhahahaha!

Cruise ship passengers. Awesome :-)

I dunno, I can't say I've tried it. As far as I know, there are little men in there that carry the oxygen around in little bags. Sometimes they get tired and they don't carry as much. Or, it's too cold out and they go on strike. Maybe the old timers don't like the noobs and they won't let them play along right away ;-)

by gavia on Jul 27, 2007 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boogerd is pissed!

According to cyclingnews, Michael Boogerd, Ras's Rabobank teammate, is pissed at the way Ras took off without addressing the team. If you were innocent, and mere days away from winning the Tour, wouldn't you go to your teammates and tell them you are being wrongly accused.
Boogerd said, "We didn't talk with each other. He didn't dare to come, I guess he proved to be a chicken," Boogerd said sarcastically just before the peloton rolled away from Pau.
If his own teammates don't believe him, what kind of naive or cynical fool would? Lots of dopers get away with it for a long time before they're caught. I've read interviews with dopers who said when the tests were coming back negative, it was just business as usual. Time for everyone to take off the rose colored glasses. Only a guilty man runs away.

by Waddy on Jul 26, 2007 10:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Giro d'Italia

At some time today I was looking at past results and Rasmussen was in the Giro d'Italia,which ran from late May to early June.So he was not in Mexico all of may and June.
Incidentally,of about 8 or 9 mountain stages, ras only cracked the top 20 in 2 of them-13th and 4th.

by beowolffc on Jul 26, 2007 11:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Mexico or Italy?

I don't give a shit where he was. He broke his femur just last year and now he is flying up mountains like Pantani ( he broke Armstrong's time up Plateau de Beille), and is suddenly one of the best time trialists in the world. Complete bullshit. His new found physical gifts, and the missed tests are enough evidence in my book, not to mention the cow blood incident. The smug cheating bastard deserved just what he got. Cudos to Rabobank. If I were his teammates, I'd break his other leg. It's assholes like this that need to be weeded out in order for this sport to move on.

by Eric V on Jul 26, 2007 11:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

As I said...

mob mentality.

by hughw on Jul 27, 2007 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chris posted this earlier

http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12953.0.html

Evans has been riding with this guy for over ten years. Remember, you can even convict a murderer with enough circumstantial evidence. This has nothing to do with mob mentality; it is justice being served on a dirty rider.

by Eric V on Jul 27, 2007 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well if Cadel thinks it's 'strange' then

that's all the evidence I need!

Oh wait, he also said

I really don't know the truth behind it all. Just because someone has a good performance you should never accuse them of cheating because it could be the result of hard work and good training.

by hughw on Jul 27, 2007 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rabo statement

I've seen a couple of different interviews with the Rabo spokesperson from the night of the firing. In all of them he repeats the same message: "when Theo de Rooi asked MR if the Cassani-story was true MR confirmed it". Of course it will be word against word but Rabo isn't some Tinkoff-type joke team. It's one of the best organized and professional teams in the peloton with a long history in the sport. Even Rolf Sörensen , danish expertcommentator and former Rabo rider, who is MR's greatest supporter admits that if the Rabo leadership took this step it was based on good evidence.

by Jens on Jul 27, 2007 2:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think Ras is a doper

I think he probably did use "modern training methods" (love that, Kevin) in June.

Now a lot of guys on the Podium Cafe don't know this about me, but I have been wrong in the past. That's why they don't use hughw's gut feelings as a doping indicator.

I'd way rather let him get away with it than take away a rightfully won jersey. But the teams and organizers have just spazzed. They think there's a crisis requiring extraordinary, Gitmo-like measures. Not so. Just lay down some procedures and follow them. If the procedures aren't good enough, make 'em better. But don't flail around shooting anything that moves.

by hughw on Jul 27, 2007 2:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Don't flail around like a chicken

with its head cut off. I shoulda said. Damn.

by hughw on Jul 27, 2007 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I used to think this, too

I'm a convert to the quick to judge mentality--at least as long as the "evidence" passes the sniff test. For a couple of reasons: it's really not like Gitmo. Ras doesn't get an all expenses paid one way trip to Cuba courtesy of the CIA or whatever, He just can't finish the TdF. It's horribly embarassing, and it must be awful, but if it is an injustice--it's pretty easy to fix. Also, I think doping basically thrives on our credulity.

-K-

by KevinK on Jul 27, 2007 6:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I do respect and appreciate

the fact that Hugh is trying to put the brakes on what sort of escalated into a Chicken effigy-burning (Chicken pinata-bashing?).

People have said it before, I'll say it again, though --- wouldn't it be great if the Chicken pulled a Simoni and came forward and said, "Look, test me --- here's some hair, run a complete DNA test, you'll find nothing!"

by 72andSunny on Jul 27, 2007 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Waddy

The timing sucks, but the rules are the rules. Why should anyone be above them. Out of competition testing is a part of the system. It doesn't matter if it didn't happen DURING the Tour. Sinkewitz failed a test in June and he was out. Failed tests, multiple missed tests, evading the testers, lying to your employer - all grounds for dismissal. Why would anyone be above the rules. Testing positive DURING the Tour is not the only way to cheat. Basso only intended to cheat, or so he says, and he's out for 2 years. Time to get real boys and girls.

by Waddy on Jul 27, 2007 9:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Actually

Wasn't Sinking Joke out even before the results of his June test were announced? Didn't he have to abandon after being injured hitting a spectator at the end of a stage?

On a tangential note, has anyone heard anything about what became of that spectator? Last I heard, he was in a coma, but that was a week and a half ago. Anyone have an update?

by Le Comte on Jul 27, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sinking Joke and the spectator

Yes, he crashed on the way back to his hotel. The spectator, who is 81 years old, came out of his coma but I don't know any more about his condition. Sinking Joke was fired by T-Mobile and would have been removed from the race had he been in it, so the fact that he was injured is irrelevant to the issue of his testosterone use. Tour organizers were plenty pissed that the news did not come until the first week of the tour. Yet another political issue. they felt T-Mobile should have known this by July 1 and he should have never started the race.

by Waddy on Jul 27, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm.

I'm still in Maine, laboring under the weight of a slower-than-near-absolute-zero dialup connection.

So, gee, did I miss anything at the Tour this year?

This Post Brought to You By Hennie's Hordes:
We're not one of the other VDS teams

by TCWriter on Jul 27, 2007 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not a thing

Fignon is poised to take his 2nd overall victory. His ponytail looks great.

"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. "

by Drew on Jul 27, 2007 12:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Excellent.

Just so long as there wasn't any doping weirdness at this tour. That would be terrible.

This Post Brought to You By Hennie's Hordes:
We're not one of the other VDS teams

by TCWriter on Jul 27, 2007 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

None at all

There was an ETA protest and some local farmers blocked the road but otherwise it was business as usual.

So, do you think Reagan gets re-elected next year?

"Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel. "

by Drew on Jul 27, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

UCI Release on why Rassmussen was allowed to ride

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENewsDetails.asp?id=NDIyNA&MenuId=MTkyNw&BackLink=%2Ftemplat es%2FUCI%2FUCI5%2Flayout%2Easp%3FMenuId%3DMTkyNw

Apparently there is a rule on the books that says if a rider missed a test or receives a warning about not being available to be tested within 45 days of an event, he will not be allowed to ride.

The UCI justified its inclusion of Rassmussen in le tour by saying that while he did receive two warnings, he was tested within 45 days of the event. Since he was tested, they let him ride.

This sounds reasonable enough. They also say that they will consider "other" evidence of misrepresenting his whereabouts as they come to light. So he may face official sanction, if Cassini's evidence is corroborated.

Brooklyn Chewing Gum: Vlaanderens Mooiste

by Koppenberg on Jul 27, 2007 2:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs